Classic Cartridges

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Nick
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#61 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Nick »

Overhang is the distance the stylus is from the spindle at the centre of the record. In the arc across the record, the stylus is 90 deg to the line from the centre of the record at two points in the arc, the null points of the chosen geometry. The inward force is caused by a combination of the offset angle between the stylus to pivot point and the cantilever and if the stylus is before or after the null point. One is fixed, the other varies. Therefore the bias required changes. Also as the speed of the stylus in the grove changes, the friction and so the force changes across the record.

Shown in https://www.analogplanet.com/content/to ... ometry-101

Between the null points the stylus is behind the 90 deg point, outside them its ahead of them.
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Nick
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#62 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Nick »

On that cartridge (a Shure something or other), I had a bent cantilever (skewed towards the middle of the record) at the end of the month
As the arm was lowered, was the arm free to move inward as soon as the stylus hit the lead in groove, or was there a small time each repeat where the groove pulled the stylus in against he friction of the arm lowering device?

Would the bias which pulls out, not increase the twisting force on the cantilever rather than reduce it if you believe the skating force was what bent the stylus?
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#63 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by izzy wizzy »

Nick wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:34 pm Overhang is the distance the stylus is from the spindle at the centre of the record. In the arc across the record, the stylus is 90 deg to the line from the centre of the record at two points in the arc, the null points of the chosen geometry. The inward force is caused by a combination of the offset angle between the stylus to pivot point and the cantilever and if the stylus is before or after the null point. One is fixed, the other varies. Therefore the bias required changes. Also as the speed of the stylus in the grove changes, the friction and so the force changes across the record.

Shown in https://www.analogplanet.com/content/to ... ometry-101

Between the null points the stylus is behind the 90 deg point, outside them its ahead of them.
The link above is to do with geometry relating to cartridge alignment. Got nothing to do with skating forces.

A pivoted arm is always ahead of the tangent due to overhang so skates in. The previous videos link demonstrate exactly this.
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#64 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by rowuk »

Nick wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:43 pm
On that cartridge (a Shure something or other), I had a bent cantilever (skewed towards the middle of the record) at the end of the month
As the arm was lowered, was the arm free to move inward as soon as the stylus hit the lead in groove, or was there a small time each repeat where the groove pulled the stylus in against he friction of the arm lowering device?

Would the bias which pulls out, not increase the twisting force on the cantilever rather than reduce it if you believe the skating force was what bent the stylus?
Actually, it was simply those circumstances that have "biased" my view since those early '80s. Maybe I just hit a limit for cantilever "hit the groove" stress? 4 weeks is around 1800 repeats.

For my simplistic mind, record playback is very primitive and complex at the same time. If microns can create high quality sound, how much horizontal force would affect that and how stable can a system be that has to allow the arm to be positioned by the stylus. If we want a "solid" mechanical ground to allow the cantilever to transmit as much of the signal as possible, what happens with even slightly off center holes? Even if the situation is not audible what does repetitive stress do to the cantilever and suspension over time.
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#65 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Nick »

what does repetitive stress do to the cantilever and suspension over time.
I would think unflat records will apply much higher repetitive forces.
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#66 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by vinylnvalves »

There are a few pivot linear trackers some more successful than other, I bet someone owns a Garrard Zero. The best example I have seen after you discount the Thales arm ( to much to go wrong) is one from Frank Schröder the LT... details here https://darklantern.proboards.com/threa ... lt-tonearm This could be the final chapter in tonearm design, I do question why different arm lengths are available though...
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#67 Re: Classic Cartridges

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I spent some time at Munich watching the Reed 5T working

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#68 Re: Classic Cartridges

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vinylnvalves wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:32 pmI bet someone owns a Garrard Zero.
Yes.
Never used it thought because its build quality seems to be completely crap. Its not in bad nick but there seems to be loads of slop in all the pivots. Dunno if they were like that new, but it does not inspire confidence
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#69 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by IslandPink »

Nick wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:48 pm I spent some time at Munich watching the Reed 5T working
So, is the floating pivot bit sensed and moved electronically ?
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#70 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by vinylnvalves »

The Reed isn’t a passive system... as far as I am aware Franks is the only passive one which is elegant from my perspective as a mechanical engineer, however if you design control systems.. your view of beauty maybe different. Frank has the patent, a few companies make it under license. KT and Thales have pantograph type ones, with lots of bearings etc.

I always thought that Dynavector missed a trick with their unique arm, not doing something similar.

Some of these patents sit for years before the technology to implement them has matured. Take the Air Blade, as a fan of AMT’s it’s getting close to that ultimate speaker driver. Taking 40 years since Oskar Heils patent to make one commercially.

Eccentric bearings would be another way of achieving it, but would be a PITA to align/time the bearing... many styli broken I feel.

Obviously a laser reading system - similar to what they have at Livermore Labs, in the analogue data storage systems would get around the whole problem. Vinyl straight to digital at a phenomenal sampling rate... via the DSP to D class AMS amps .... the weakest link is still the speaker at the end :(
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#71 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Nick »

IslandPink wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:02 pm
Nick wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:48 pm I spent some time at Munich watching the Reed 5T working
So, is the floating pivot bit sensed and moved electronically ?
Yes, there is a laser mounted on the tonearm pointing backwards. That shines on a CCD mounted on the rear part. the disk the arm pivot is mounted on controlled by a servo system that keeps the beam centred on the CCD.
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#72 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

I’ve been havering for years about these things and finally pulled the trigger on a Grado Prestige Black 2 cartridge.
It has the sort of sound of which cults are made. Like the Denon DL103, Grados seem to polarise views, people either love or loathe them. For me the Prestige Black 2 is a lovely thing. I guess I fall into the ‘love ‘em camp. I’ve obviously lost it completely.
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#73 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

Well I got this Grado on Tuesday and can’t stop playing records. I’ll not be using any other brand of cartridge. Next cartridge upgrade will be the new wood-bodied Opus3 once I’ve saved the necessary pennies. My only regret, is that I didn’t move to Grados , forty years ago. They just sound ‘right.’ I can’t explain it any better than that. Joe Grado and latterly his son John were and are geniuses. Should have listened to Ken Kessler rather than the populists.
(Cue mellotron) I climbed on the back of a giant albatross, which flew through a crack in the clouds to a place where happiness reigned all year round and music played ever so loudly.
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#74 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by JamesD »

Should have listened to Ken Kessler
Wow!!! :D

Grados have always been a bit of a "Marmite" choice - I never could make my mind up about them some I liked and some I really didn't.... of course that could have been me or just normal system dependence...

Glad you have something your enjoying and that your talking about it here..
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#75 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

I think, that the main thing that has endeared this Grado cart to me, is one word. Tone. It makes my records sound like vintage vinyl - you know - how vinyl used to sound, when I were a lad; before the quest to make it sound like digital began. Grados according to the late Harry Pearson, do ‘varying degrees of pleasant’ and that, TBH is what I want from records. Accuracy and resolution can go and feck themselves. The Prestige Black I bought, has soul, does vocals, jazz and old 50s and 60s stuff, superbly and makes big classical pieces sound epic.
I’m currently playing an original 1968 mono pressing of The Hollies Greatest Hits. It’s a bit battered by ancient ten ton pickups, but it sounds wonderful and the Grado gives their harmonies, free reign without everything getting harsh. Makes the system sound like I’m listening to a Rock-Ola juke box, with this record. Which is exactly what the doctor ordered with these old records. Guess I’ll be getting out the Motown stuff soon. :)

I’m sure if I put my Audio Technica VM540ML cart in the SME, it’s resolution, detail and thoroughly modern sound, would make the Grado sound laughably coloured in comparison, but I know which presentation takes me off into the music without effort. Would love to hear a Len Gregory ‘Music Maker.’ But I can’t afford the admission price.
(Cue mellotron) I climbed on the back of a giant albatross, which flew through a crack in the clouds to a place where happiness reigned all year round and music played ever so loudly.
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