Classic Cartridges

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rowuk
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#16 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by rowuk »

Cressy Snr wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:04 pm
karatestu wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:34 am Yes flat earth bollox has a lot to answer for. Luckily (debateable) my tonearm is a Naim Aro so no crappy bearings to worry about.
The really galling thing is that my almost 50 year-old early 70s teenage proggy stuff that was played to death on a BSR auto-changer with ceramic cartridge, tracking at 4g, is in better nick; never having been near an Akito/K18.
Sometimes a more radical stylus shape (Shibata, fineline) gets deeper into the groove and is able to avoid the more damaged parts. Replacing the vinyl is probably a better cure.
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#17 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

rowuk wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:28 am
...Sometimes a more radical stylus shape (Shibata, fineline) gets deeper into the groove and is able to avoid the more damaged parts. Replacing the vinyl is probably a better cure.
Yes, it’d be far less bother and the resentment would probably go away. :)
(Cue mellotron) I climbed on the back of a giant albatross, which flew through a crack in the clouds to a place where happiness reigned all year round and music played ever so loudly.
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#18 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

This is taking retro to its ultimate conclusion - Nylon bolts. :lol:
AD480F0D-4235-4190-9B16-46DE1F382884.jpeg
0F6E9C1A-86EF-4C9C-AAAB-C6DFDD6A037C.jpeg
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#19 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

Don’t laugh 😂
I’m still taking in what this means.
The M55E/SME combo sounds totally beautiful with the nylon bolts gently caressing the cartridge against the lightweight perforated headshell.

40 odd years of Linn “tighten your bolts ‘til your Allen key bends” bullshit sent packing with the turn of a plastic screwdriver. Unbelievable! 👍

Cheaper than one of those Houdini things too. :mrgreen:
(Cue mellotron) I climbed on the back of a giant albatross, which flew through a crack in the clouds to a place where happiness reigned all year round and music played ever so loudly.
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#20 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by JamesD »

I never thought I would utter (write) these words....

In Linn's defence....

With a lot of cartridges and headshells - particularly MC and low compliance ones - it is better to tighten the headsells nuts and bolts quite a lot.

With the SME 'bent metal' headshell and mm higher compliance cartridges it can help to use nylon bolts and just nip them to slightly more than hand tight - its all about headshell resonance suppression and leading the excess energy of the cartridge away from the stylus/generator system

In other words - don't try this with a Denon 103 on the end of the tonearm :)
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rowuk
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#21 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by rowuk »

Did not the original also have some anti resonant caulking material to apply between the cartridge and headshell?

I have an Ortofon Rohmann mounted on my SME3009 II (fixed headshell). You can hear if the nuts and bolts are too tight. The bass quality goes away.
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#22 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

rowuk wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:50 pm Did not the original also have some anti resonant caulking material to apply between the cartridge and headshell?...
Yep, cartridge bonding paste I think they called it.
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#23 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

More retro madness:
9D2B9EF9-21E3-43E5-BC14-54BB5B3093AA.jpeg
Can you spot what’s missing off the arm ?
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#24 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by IslandPink »

Hmm.... no bias ?
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#25 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

IslandPink wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:03 pm Hmm.... no bias ?
Anti skate removed. Yes I’ve got a death wish for my records. I’m a complete idiot. Finally lost the plot.
The fact that it all sounds really excellent, should in no way allowed to mitigate the fact that this might be a very dodgy thing to be doing.

Opinion is divided on Vinyl Engine about whether to anti-skate or not. Some swear by no bias, citing broadcast arms, VPI, AR and some Grace tonearms as examples of the no bias brigade. Others are horrified.
(Cue mellotron) I climbed on the back of a giant albatross, which flew through a crack in the clouds to a place where happiness reigned all year round and music played ever so loudly.
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rowuk
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#26 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by rowuk »

You will be able to see after about 1000 hours if it makes a difference.

I look back to the pioneering, pre digital days when the magazines actually criticized analog playback. There were actually methods for getting the bias right. Now, in these troubled political days, anything outrageous is taken seriously and causes great waves among the lemmings.

If it sounds good - it is good. Mistracking and dirt cause groove damage - not bias. The only things that bias could affect:
1) skew of the cantilever until that becomes permanent
2) misbalance between the left and right channels
3) mistracking IF there is a big difference in recorded level between both channels
4) wear of the stylus after many hours.

All of these things would be easy to observe and if they do not happen, then it makes no difference.

I will leave mine on and we can chat about this in 10 years or so...
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#27 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

Just reporting what I find.

The 1960s Shure cart with scaffold pole cantilever, simply sounds better without the anti-skate engaged.
I’m in no way suggesting that anyone should do the same with a modern cartridge. This is vintage 1960s transducers we’re talking about here, not ten grands worth of expensive audiophilia.
I mean the 1950s Shure M3D was a fad for a while. I’m sure that venerable device never originally went in an arm with anti-skate.

Just having a bit of fun. It’s allowed isn’t it?
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#28 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by IslandPink »

The only thing I'll say is that my approach to anti-skate changed about 5 years ago when I tried using the method described by Allen Wright.
Roughly speaking, this involved working with music ( not test records ) and starting at zero bias, working up by small stages listening to the rendition of micro-dynamics on the two channels.
I found that the end result was a bias that was only about 1/3 of what I had been using. After a year or two I also noticed that i wasn't getting any cantilever offset on my cartridges after 500hrs+, either !
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#29 Re: Classic Cartridges

Post by Cressy Snr »

IslandPink wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:05 pm The only thing I'll say is that my approach to anti-skate changed about 5 years ago when I tried using the method described by Allen Wright.
Roughly speaking, this involved working with music ( not test records ) and starting at zero bias, working up by small stages listening to the rendition of micro-dynamics on the two channels.
I found that the end result was a bias that was only about 1/3 of what I had been using. After a year or two I also noticed that i wasn't getting any cantilever offset on my cartridges after 500hrs+, either !
That’s exactly what I’ve just done today with the Shure, except that zero bias was the endpoint of the experiment, where the sound and overall performance was best.
(Cue mellotron) I climbed on the back of a giant albatross, which flew through a crack in the clouds to a place where happiness reigned all year round and music played ever so loudly.
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Nick
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#30 Re: Classic Cartridges

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Cressy Snr wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:25 pm
IslandPink wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:05 pm The only thing I'll say is that my approach to anti-skate changed about 5 years ago when I tried using the method described by Allen Wright.
Roughly speaking, this involved working with music ( not test records ) and starting at zero bias, working up by small stages listening to the rendition of micro-dynamics on the two channels.
I found that the end result was a bias that was only about 1/3 of what I had been using. After a year or two I also noticed that i wasn't getting any cantilever offset on my cartridges after 500hrs+, either !
That’s exactly what I’ve just done today with the Shure, except that zero bias was the endpoint of the experiment, where the sound and overall performance was best.
The problem with the SME is you don't have a easy way of applying variable small amount of bias, its only a choice of steps. It may well be that as per the doc that Mark is referring to the point of optimal bias (which is a very fine adjustment) is between the zero and first step,
1) skew of the cantilever until that becomes permanent
2) misbalance between the left and right channels
I have never understood how too little bias can cause 1, I can see how too much could. But maybe someone with a mech-eng background can explain how a force applied to the end of a pivited arm can bend the cantelever without the arm moving in response. And I can't see how it can cause 2 either assuming the coils stay in their linear range, which they should because of my view on 1.
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