Well, we're not and our brains play tricks on us so even if it was identical we would probably say it wasn't the same.
Nothing In Particular
#11041 Re: Nothing In Particular
Sorry, I couldn't resist!
- andrew Ivimey
- Social Sevices have been notified
- Posts: 8318
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
- Location: Bedford
#11042 Re: Nothing In Particular
Yes we do do that dont we.
And 'it' probably has changed anyway.
Here's a tale.
Do you remember the chocolate drops that Woolworth's used to sell back in the 60s - they disappeared late 70s. Bloody Common Market! Political correctness gone mad!! What does it matter if they weren't actually made if chocolate!!!
Sometime in the 90s I started to look for them - they couldn't really have vanished, banished to the developing world or further away even. I searched the U.K.s sweet shops big and larder but my quest remained frustrated. And then in the 21st century I was strolling down a little street in Whitby with my wife and I dashed into a sweet shop I had previously visited years before....
To cut a long story short I bought all they had and sure enough the chic drops were still being manufactured in Yorkshire, somewhere.
Having then eaten around 4kg of this delightful confection 'fairly' quickly ( I gave a few sweets away) I decided I had had a life's allowance of choc drops and no longer craved, fancied or desired, in the least, those lovely, as I remembered , far off youthful memories ever again.
But I'm sure they were the real thing.
And 'it' probably has changed anyway.
Here's a tale.
Do you remember the chocolate drops that Woolworth's used to sell back in the 60s - they disappeared late 70s. Bloody Common Market! Political correctness gone mad!! What does it matter if they weren't actually made if chocolate!!!
Sometime in the 90s I started to look for them - they couldn't really have vanished, banished to the developing world or further away even. I searched the U.K.s sweet shops big and larder but my quest remained frustrated. And then in the 21st century I was strolling down a little street in Whitby with my wife and I dashed into a sweet shop I had previously visited years before....
To cut a long story short I bought all they had and sure enough the chic drops were still being manufactured in Yorkshire, somewhere.
Having then eaten around 4kg of this delightful confection 'fairly' quickly ( I gave a few sweets away) I decided I had had a life's allowance of choc drops and no longer craved, fancied or desired, in the least, those lovely, as I remembered , far off youthful memories ever again.
But I'm sure they were the real thing.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
#11043 Re: Nothing In Particular
wow....My first thought was 'do not read this if you are planning an overseas holiday in the near future'. Then, rationally, I thought but the average person reading this wont worry because it applies to 737 max, and they are all grounded. But does it!jack wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:51 am Really interesting article about the 737 MAX and the MCAS system written by a guy who is a pilot and longtime software engineer. Thoughtful and well written...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.i ... r.amp.html
from an ex-pilot and ex-software engineer point of view I could point out a few journalistic features but I don't think the article is aimed at techies. I think the writer has done a superb job of illustrating the problem....but I wont' look forward to an invite to dinner, not with the size of his dinner plates.
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
#11044 Re: Nothing In Particular
Yep, all that information was out there around the time that Boeing were still claiming that the cause was not their fault.jack wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:51 am Really interesting article about the 737 MAX and the MCAS system written by a guy who is a pilot and longtime software engineer. Thoughtful and well written...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.i ... r.amp.html
I am a bit worried though with the view that you can achieve redundancy with two sensors.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20189
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: The Fens
- Contact:
#11045 Re: Nothing In Particular
And this is page No. 737! How spooky is that
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
- jack
- Thermionic Monk Status
- Posts: 5502
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:58 pm
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsnɐ oʇ ƃuıʌoɯ ƃuıɹǝpısuoɔ
- Contact:
#11046 Re: Nothing In Particular
It's a level of redundancy. The idea is that whatever happens, the human should be able to override the bitey dog...
Vivitur ingenio, caetera mortis erunt
#11047 Re: Nothing In Particular
Yes, but it talks about the redundancy of two angle-of-attack sensors with the assumption that the human would provide the vote to determine which one had failed if they give different readings. But in heavy fog (for example) you are down to just the two sensors, as the human can't provide the final vote.
As you know I am sure, you can't detect a faulty sensor is you only have two. Its not about the dog. Now there may well be other sources of information that the system will use, but my point is that in his writing he is guilty (IMHO) of the same flawed reasoning that he points the finger at the Boeing developers for.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
#11048 Re: Nothing In Particular
Sorry, I couldn't resist!
- andrew Ivimey
- Social Sevices have been notified
- Posts: 8318
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
- Location: Bedford
#11049 Re: Nothing In Particular
And Birmingham is getting radical with motor cars!
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
- IslandPink
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 10041
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 pm
- Location: Denbigh, N.Wales
#11050 Re: Nothing In Particular
Bring it on !
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
#11051 Re: Nothing In Particular
that was one of the points I took issue with, but didn't voice in my post. If the 2 flow sensors are at odds with each other, and he did mention angle of attack was determined here(not always the case) then reference should be made to the artificial horizon, which also gives pitch as well as roll. Isn't this the third arbiter which he mentions is omitted from the test?Nick wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:31 pm
But in heavy fog (for example) you are down to just the two sensors, as the human can't provide the final vote.
As you know I am sure, you can't detect a faulty sensor is you only have two. Its not about the dog. Now there may well be other sources of information that the system will use, but my point is that in his writing he is guilty (IMHO) of the same flawed reasoning that he points the finger at the Boeing developers for.
certainly in the cessna the artificial horizon is the life saver in limited vis, but I'm not sure what else they have on the 737. either way I'd like the pilot to be able to pull the plug on the computer.......but I'm a cable and rods kind of guy.
I have wondered on more than one occasion what would happen if I took my foot off in the fast lane of the motorway and the ecu took no notice. I had a diesel landrover that did the very same thing before flybywire was invented. Some previous owner had tied the air butterfly linkage assembly with bailing twine because the ball joint had broken. I was happily driving on the dual carriageway approaching Slough and took my foot off the accelerator when the beast started making a loud knocking sound and gaining speed....very scary...I only escaped by standing on the brake with all my weight and yanking the handbrake as hard as I could. It seems (I was told later) that the diesel pump was starved but the air kept on coming, so it started feeding on sump oil...go figure.
fly by wire? mmmm
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
#11052 Re: Nothing In Particular
Probably much the same as a corroded throttle cable. Its not as if the older alternative was fault free as you said in the same post.and the ecu took no notice.
And I believe all cars are designed such that he breaking system can overpower the engine.
You also have a clutch in those cases.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
#11053 Re: Nothing In Particular
It’s a known fault with modern diesels that the engine can “runaway”, the engine will burn the engine oil to run.Usually results in over revving until the engine destroys itself. Rare but it happens.
- shane
- Social outcast
- Posts: 3405
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:09 pm
- Location: Kept in a cool dry place.
#11054 Re: Nothing In Particular
For all our cyclists.
Beautifully engineered, but I don’t think I could cope with the enormity of the potential disaster.
Beautifully engineered, but I don’t think I could cope with the enormity of the potential disaster.
The world looks so different after learning science. For example, trees are made of air, primarily. When they are burned, they go back to air, and in their flaming heat is released the flaming heat of the Sun which was bound in to convert air into tree.
- jack
- Thermionic Monk Status
- Posts: 5502
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:58 pm
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsnɐ oʇ ƃuıʌoɯ ƃuıɹǝpısuoɔ
- Contact:
#11055 Re: Nothing In Particular
It's a bomb under your meat and two veg
Vivitur ingenio, caetera mortis erunt