Tubes sound better??

Subjects that don't have their own home
steve s
Shed dweller
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 6:19 pm
Location: east yorks

#1 Tubes sound better??

Post by steve s »

I had a read through this, nothing new really but some interesting points made... and just when I've bought another solid state amp?

https://kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes ... better.htm
The tube manual is quite like a telephone book. The number of it perfect. It is useful to make it possible to speak with a girl. But we can't see her beautiful face from the telephone number
User avatar
ed
retired
Posts: 5384
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:01 pm
Location: yorkshire
Contact:

#2 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by ed »

Life is too short.

And I can’t tell the difference between the best of what I’ve got anyway.
There are lots of different valve amps, and lots of different sounding alternatives.
To compare, imo, one would have had to hear every valve amplifier and every alternative amplifier and then each of the aforementioned with every loudspeaker permutation. And then it would only be your opinion.

We would all be happier if we were doing what we enjoy.
If arguing/discussing which method of amplification is best makes you happy...then get on with it.

Did I mention that life is too short.

edit: I didn't read the item all the way through....sorry Ken.
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15707
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#3 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by Nick »

I think he is mainly describing why one sounds different, better is a lot harder to decide. For me the most important question is does the amp dictate the music you listen to and how loud you want to listen to it.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
User avatar
ed
retired
Posts: 5384
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:01 pm
Location: yorkshire
Contact:

#4 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by ed »

Nick wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:48 pm I think he is mainly describing why one sounds different, better is a lot harder to decide. For me the most important question is does the amp dictate the music you listen to and how loud you want to listen to it.
I think he is mainly describing why one sounds different, better is a lot harder to decide
It's a bit misleading to title the piece thus though:
'Why Tubes Sound Better'
For me the most important question is does the amp dictate the music you listen to and how loud you want to listen to it
This might be a good point but for me listening predominently to the radio means I have no control over the content. I can see the merit in this for those that listen to jazz or classical or metal exclusively. Or more likely, girl and guitar.
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15707
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#5 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by Nick »

I have no control over the content
Well, I disagree, people normally pick what they listen too on the radio because of the type of music that is played on that station. And you can certainly decide how loud its played.

But I agree, the title is misleading, but he is writing it to get page views, so being contentious is a plus.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
User avatar
ed
retired
Posts: 5384
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:01 pm
Location: yorkshire
Contact:

#6 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by ed »

Nick wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:20 pm
Well, I disagree, people normally pick what they listen too on the radio because of the type of music that is played on that station.
an interesting approach, but I, and an increasing number of people I speak to, listen to paradise. Whether this is an indication of people broadening their listening preferences I'm not sure, but I'm fairly certain it's not one type of music. I love the variation but agree there are loads who are locked into one genre.
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15707
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#7 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by Nick »

I keep forgetting that radio doesn't mean radio anymore.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
Wolfgang
Old Hand
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 3:08 pm

#8 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by Wolfgang »

Nice article. Nothing really new but a good refresher of what we already know.

For DIY-ers there is a way to find out what sounds better if we experiment with different versions of the same amp and maybe with a limited number of different amp circuits. As it will be tested in the same listening room under same listening conditions (volume, music style etc) it will show something important at least to the listener.

My last excursion building the InvOTL right after the 6C33 OTL and testing both with different psu versions, comparing NFB with no NFB, comparing them with TS designs and amps with OPT like the Cary 120S, and from memory with ML and Electrocompaniet transistor amps with which I have listened for many years prior to OTL/single driver BLH designs revealed quite a bit regarding which way I should go in order to be truly satisfied with the sound.
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10552
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#9 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by Cressy Snr »

Aye it’s a good article. I’ve been vacillating between solid state and valves, since I bought a pre/power combination from the late Richard Dunn.
I put the solid state amp in my system and it’s great...for a few days...then something starts to irritate and the valves go back in. Single tube OTLs with multiple power supplies are a hopeless cause with anything but 100dB plus efficient speakers, but they sure sound good in the right circumstances. And handily, I have the right circumstances. :D
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
steve s
Shed dweller
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 6:19 pm
Location: east yorks

#10 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by steve s »

I'm just in the planning stage of building a few sets to try different valve combinations. The pp3521 that I got off Paul a few years ago need an airing and the da100s need listening to... I've read they sound the same as as my vt25s from 10 years ago.. sort of putting me off.
In the meantime I've eventually picked up an aura va40 based on how eds sounded, to me its similar to the nva I have but much sweeter and musical. Mine seems a much bigger difference to the nva's compared to what I remember of Ed's aura

The artical brought up many things I was aware of, but wouldn't have listed myself.
To me the (at the moment !) biggest thing is the dynamics, all amplifiers topologies seem to rob the music, but sets or single valve output stages seem to retain the most of them.

Hence my valve journey continues.. once I get my replacement for the red speakers completed.
The tube manual is quite like a telephone book. The number of it perfect. It is useful to make it possible to speak with a girl. But we can't see her beautiful face from the telephone number
chris661
Shed dweller
Posts: 2556
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:29 am
Location: Sheffield

#11 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by chris661 »

Steve,
It's been my experience that large solid-state amps are the go-to for dynamics. I remember the meet-up at Steve C's where the Crown amp (it came to Owston, too, but not sure if you'll remember it specifically) was happy with large dynamic swings that the valve amps couldn't quite match.

I plan on keeping that particular amp around, so it'll probably come to other meets.

Chris
User avatar
The Stratmangler
Shed dweller
Posts: 2890
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:50 pm
Location: Rossendale, Lancashire

#12 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by The Stratmangler »

Nick wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:48 pmFor me the most important question is does the amp dictate the music you listen to and how loud you want to listen to it.
I agree.
If the amp does dictate the music you listen to through it, and how loud it, then the amp is inadequate.
Chris :happy3:
steve s
Shed dweller
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 6:19 pm
Location: east yorks

#13 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by steve s »

chris661 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:10 am Steve,
It's been my experience that large solid-state amps are the go-to for dynamics. I remember the meet-up at Steve C's where the Crown amp (it came to Owston, too, but not sure if you'll remember it specifically) was happy with large dynamic swings that the valve amps couldn't quite match.

I plan on keeping that particular amp around, so it'll probably come to other meets.

Chris
When I say dynamics I mean the ability for the instruments to stand out in the mix, even at low volume.
Most amps seem to compress the music to some degree... is it the mainstream hi fi sound nowadays ?

Its a subtle differences with good amps regardless of the topology , but not subtle at all with many.

I'm a regular at the wam show and hear alot more high wattage solid state gear there, That compressed sound is the usual result, and usually tinged with a hint of greyness to the mix, although generally they have some weight to the sound, in my view can be a good or a bad thing depending on the setup.
Many of the classic jazz recordings are a good test of how much the instruments and voices should stand out and separate.
That's what Steve has improved on with his otl power supply work

Would be great to hear your crown amp again
I do remember your set up, a different sound to what I prefer, but we all have different views of course..
The tube manual is quite like a telephone book. The number of it perfect. It is useful to make it possible to speak with a girl. But we can't see her beautiful face from the telephone number
User avatar
ed
retired
Posts: 5384
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:01 pm
Location: yorkshire
Contact:

#14 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by ed »

I think this item highlights the fact that we're not all chasing the same thing......

I hadn't realised that Steve was so impressed with my VA40, which has now been in the studio setup for nearly 20 years. It was a revelation to me that it was the same output as my 5 watt latfet that I brought to Owston in 2018. That was a proving concept for the seperate power supply for the front and back ends.

The 5 watt latfet gets swapped in and out of my main system, juggling for position with my srpp 2A3....I really can't choose one over the other. As far as the muscle studio amps are concerned they just don't have the finesse for me in a hifi setup....and I do have some experience of Samson, Behringer and Crown, they just don't do it for me.

I've said it many times before, and Steve has just reiterated it...If I can identify all the instruments in their own space and they sound like the instruments that I'm familiar with in acoustic space, then I'm happy. On reflection, this aspect may be as much to do with the recording engineer's capabilities as it is the repro equipment.

so to say tubes sound better to me is anathema, which only really highlights my first sentence.
Oh..and then there is my class d with electrostatics.....no better or worse than any of the other combinations....maybe more pleasing to me though.
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
Ant
Shed dweller
Posts: 2332
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:45 pm
Location: Yorkshire

#15 Re: Tubes sound better??

Post by Ant »

This is why I have stayed with the f5, I havent come across something that does things better for me across a range of music.
I haven't any preference for valves or sand any more, I did have the valve blinkers on for a long time until the f5 comprehensively beat the el34 amp I was using. I then decided to concentrate on other things than amps.
I haven't the inclination to build another amp any more, the ones I have heard that have piqued my interest again for a bit have been various otl amps and Eds sv572, but why mess with what I'm happy with? Took long enough to find something I didn't want to alter. To say one type is better is too much of a generalisation for me
Also starring Rex Hamilton as Abraham Lincoln

www.bte-designs.weebly.com
Post Reply