Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
- Mike H
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#16 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
It's OK Mark I get it. Nowt to do with equalizers and wotnot.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#17 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
Hi Mark,IslandPink wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:30 pm Chris said : "To take an example, Mark (Island Pink) often talks about "tone" in his long-running thread. I find that a little difficult to quantify for myself, which sometimes puts us at odds"
So, for me, this is a crucial factor in what I want. I can explain it in photographic terms most easily - it's like the colour saturation. I want as much as possible. Many systems render music as if it's in black and white, or a pale sepia colour. I want to find the colour knob and turn it up.
Speakers are often the culprit in ruining tone, as they are the least technical successful part of most systems. Small cones generally have better tone than big cones ; horn-loading gives more tone than box loading.
That description does help, thanks. It's a difficult thing to put in sound terms, though. For instance, would a bit of extra low-order harmonic distortion count as additional colour?
It's venturing away from a truly accurate system, but might be more pleasing to listen to.
It's a really interesting concept, and I wish there was a way of quantifying what it is you're listening for.
Chris
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#18 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
I do know what you mean Mark. I was amused that you/I like the colouration that horns give - which goes against audiophile goals of that pure unadulterated signal
The point I am trying to make, which I think Steve S has already made better, is that everyone has different tastes which is why people like different speakers as the designers those speakers voices their speaker to their taste. I personally loathe the Audio Note mid range emphasis they employ to give that beguiling midrange- initially you think it’s amazing but I tire of it after a while. I know if I equalise my speakers as flat as possible across the FR they sound boring.
The point is I have gradually realised that an audiophile system with isn’t what I want, we all like tone, emphasis, what every we want to call it. Having studied Munson’s observation you can understand why the brain is tricked by emphasis. For example the human ear is sensitive to the freq band of the female voice - so you have an infinity to your mother.
The point I am trying to make, which I think Steve S has already made better, is that everyone has different tastes which is why people like different speakers as the designers those speakers voices their speaker to their taste. I personally loathe the Audio Note mid range emphasis they employ to give that beguiling midrange- initially you think it’s amazing but I tire of it after a while. I know if I equalise my speakers as flat as possible across the FR they sound boring.
The point is I have gradually realised that an audiophile system with isn’t what I want, we all like tone, emphasis, what every we want to call it. Having studied Munson’s observation you can understand why the brain is tricked by emphasis. For example the human ear is sensitive to the freq band of the female voice - so you have an infinity to your mother.
#19 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
The point is not about additional anything, its about not loosing the colour that was in the original recording as it passes through the reproduction system. (IMHO). The losses are more complex than just loosing low harmonics, so simply adding them back will change the sound, but will not restore what was lost.count as additional colour
I am certain its certainly not horn colouration.
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- IslandPink
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#20 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
I have found a small amount of 2nd-harmonic can enhance tonal colour in the vocal range, to my ears, but otherwise the best tone I've got is with lowest distortion, especially in the bass - eg. with the Aurora PP amps. I also think that low phase shift across as big a range as possible is key to preserving tone.chris661 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:43 pm
That description does help, thanks. It's a difficult thing to put in sound terms, though. For instance, would a bit of extra low-order harmonic distortion count as additional colour?
It's venturing away from a truly accurate system, but might be more pleasing to listen to.
It's a really interesting concept, and I wish there was a way of quantifying what it is you're listening for.
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
- izzy wizzy
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#21 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
This is how it think of it too. The way we add things are more like very crude filters. Like looking through coloured cellophane. Rose tinted spectacles. Keeping tonal colours is way harder than it seems. It's more about greater variation than less of it all other things being equal. It's more complex than just a flat frequency response; how a component adds or subtracts from the harmonic content for starters.Nick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:02 pm
The point is not about additional anything, its about not loosing the colour that was in the original recording as it passes through the reproduction system. (IMHO). The losses are more complex than just loosing low harmonics, so simply adding them back will change the sound, but will not restore what was lost.
Cheers,
Stephen
#22 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
it beats me how anybody has any time for listening to the music if they spend so much time intimately dissecting the equipment.
it must be difficult deciding whether it's the music that's not to ones taste, or the recoding is less than optimal, or the equipment is at fault.
These days it's enough for me if I can pick out the individual instrument's tunes and they are seperated enough to be able to locate them in space. It has become secondary to determine if that instrument sounds totally realistic because you can never be sure what the engineer has done to the original tracking in order to fix any mistakes or force/lever some track into the mix.
but that's just me, I can appreciate if somebody has a different take and is more concerned about the equipment colouring the recipe.
two penneth of worthless rambling...as you were
it must be difficult deciding whether it's the music that's not to ones taste, or the recoding is less than optimal, or the equipment is at fault.
These days it's enough for me if I can pick out the individual instrument's tunes and they are seperated enough to be able to locate them in space. It has become secondary to determine if that instrument sounds totally realistic because you can never be sure what the engineer has done to the original tracking in order to fix any mistakes or force/lever some track into the mix.
but that's just me, I can appreciate if somebody has a different take and is more concerned about the equipment colouring the recipe.
two penneth of worthless rambling...as you were
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#23 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
I’m with Ed on the music thing.
Given my tastes for mostly getting on for 50-60 year old recordings, the music has to come first as a large percentage of the recordings are pretty lo-fi. For a laugh, while I was setting up at Owston I put on a favourite Northern Soul record by Johnny Wyatt (who?) “This Thing Called Love” It is pretty ‘orrible sounding but it produced plenty of foot tapping and it was possible to hear through the grunge to what the instruments were up to.
Have a go with it through your system
Given my tastes for mostly getting on for 50-60 year old recordings, the music has to come first as a large percentage of the recordings are pretty lo-fi. For a laugh, while I was setting up at Owston I put on a favourite Northern Soul record by Johnny Wyatt (who?) “This Thing Called Love” It is pretty ‘orrible sounding but it produced plenty of foot tapping and it was possible to hear through the grunge to what the instruments were up to.
Have a go with it through your system
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
#24 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
it beats me how anybody has any time for listening to the music if they spend so much time intimately dissecting the equipment.
But then when I played some Van Halen over 50% of the listeners evaporated. Even though its the same set of instruments (Vocals, Guitar, Bass, Drums) as Tin Pan Alley. Its very well recorded (Ted Templeman), is very dynamic (not compressed unlike a lot of things played) and was mostly recorded live. Whats not to like in a bit of music to evaluate a system with.For me, a system that plays everything is the goal.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
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#25 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
In hi-fi terms it was too loud - piercing man.
It was still good music, but the volume was the issue for me.
It was still good music, but the volume was the issue for me.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
#26 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
Well, someone could have said something. But my point was that it was meant to sound like that, that's what the instruments sound like, unlike other times over the weekend when there was lots of shrill when it should not have been there.
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#27 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
I think shrill, is a problem at meets in big rooms and it always has been. Hi-efficiency speakers and low powered valve amps in a big space are a recipe for it and it always happens. I don’t personally think there is a way to solve the problem, short of powerful solid state amplification and lowered speaker efficiency.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
- IslandPink
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#28 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
I didn't think what you played was low-fi. There was plenty of vocal and instrument tone. This is often the case with 60's or 50's recordings. It may be that 70's/80's has a quieter background or a bit more treble detail, but they are not necessarily better.Cressy Snr wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:07 am Given my tastes for mostly getting on for 50-60 year old recordings, the music has to come first as a large percentage of the recordings are pretty lo-fi. For a laugh, while I was setting up at Owston I put on a favourite Northern Soul record by Johnny Wyatt (who?) “This Thing Called Love” It is pretty ‘orrible sounding but it produced plenty of foot tapping and it was possible to hear through the grunge to what the instruments were up to.
One of the reasons I liked your system was the very good tone on vocals and instruments.
ps. the flamenco record i had on later was from 1958.
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
- IslandPink
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#29 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
Sorry to pick on you again SteveCressy Snr wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:06 am Hi-efficiency speakers and low powered valve amps in a big space are a recipe for it and it always happens
It doesn't always happen. Your amps and speakers weren't shrill - they were engaging and very listenable.
Thomas's OB's were also excellent, again driven by a low power valve amp. It was just a shame everyone became obsessed by some missing low-bass, because the efforts to put them nearer the wall or the 'Edingdale wall' just degraded the excellent midrange tone.
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
#30 Re: Owston 2019 - Listening Impressions
ok, some honest opinions from me
some will disagree, some may agree, i dont know. take these with a pinch of salt, and with the caveat that none of these opinion matter, and would very likely change on hearing the systems in their home environments rather than the compromise of owston
first, eds system talked to me. it had a lively presentation that had some soul and joi de vivre. the sv amp is still as nice as i remember, and the vofos have life to them which i like. i wanted to listen to it
second, the old mans. i know this system fairly well so i know what it can do. i love the amp, the little fanes are by no means perfect and will shriek at you if you get right on axis. they have some soul, and can be dynamic. I thought they did quite well in there. I prefer my version with the bigger drivers though, i find them a little less shouty when provoked but just as potentially shrieky on axis
simons setup had a great feeling of scale to it, i still think the fostex 208 has a shouty mid, and the h frame for the bass unit was i felt holding it back somewhat, some bass colouration that i reckon could be dialled out with some dimensional changes and maybe a heavier or more damped sheet material. but overall i think, like eds, it had an engaging sound that i wanted to listen to.
onto stephens setup, i felt it had a massive sense of scale, and grabbed your attention. the huge tannoys were very dynamic but i felt i was all bass and top in the room, there was to me hole in the mid. probably because the cabs were not in a corner so the response was tilted. again, one i would like to have listened to more, i couldnt really hear much in the way of fine treble but again the position of the speakers, and me in relation to them, is probably why.
chris's teeny speakers and sub did a good job for me. the sub was abit thuddy and one note, and the top of the fostexs was abit scratchy, but given what they were being asked to do as the contender from left field i thought the combo not half bad.
onto colins, it didnt grab me like eds and stephens did. i found it to be somewhat soulless. everything was there, but for me it didnt seem to have much in the way of life to the music. this is not quantifiable, it was just missing something that i was looking for, what that is i couldnt tell you. it was as if the music was too 'correct', too damped, if that makes any sense. which it probably doesnt. i dont know how to put it into words.
steves system was i think a little off from how i remember it, there was some hardness there that i wasnt expecting but it had a bouyant quality to it that kicked the music along nicely. maybe the little nva amp that was subbed in was struggling abit to drive the speakers, but it was still engaging.
mikes little pcl86 amp through colins other speakers was really nice, i enjoyed it. there was a lively sound to the combo that had a similar joi de vivre that i heard in eds system, it all came together nicely as a whole, and i would have liked to hear those speakers on the end of the p6 amps in colins system.
i only caught a bit of thomas's system before i had to go, but again there was a sense of scale and dynamic to the music, and i didnt hear the sidcup screech.
i only caught the barest bit of nicks 211, so i cant give opinion on that system
I know that hearing the above systems in the rooms they live in would alter my opinions, but i also think that the inherent characters of each were glimpsed in the compromise that is the owston function room. and we all want different things from our systems. for me owston is as much about the people and conversation than the systems.
apologies in advance if ive pissed anyone off.............
some will disagree, some may agree, i dont know. take these with a pinch of salt, and with the caveat that none of these opinion matter, and would very likely change on hearing the systems in their home environments rather than the compromise of owston
first, eds system talked to me. it had a lively presentation that had some soul and joi de vivre. the sv amp is still as nice as i remember, and the vofos have life to them which i like. i wanted to listen to it
second, the old mans. i know this system fairly well so i know what it can do. i love the amp, the little fanes are by no means perfect and will shriek at you if you get right on axis. they have some soul, and can be dynamic. I thought they did quite well in there. I prefer my version with the bigger drivers though, i find them a little less shouty when provoked but just as potentially shrieky on axis
simons setup had a great feeling of scale to it, i still think the fostex 208 has a shouty mid, and the h frame for the bass unit was i felt holding it back somewhat, some bass colouration that i reckon could be dialled out with some dimensional changes and maybe a heavier or more damped sheet material. but overall i think, like eds, it had an engaging sound that i wanted to listen to.
onto stephens setup, i felt it had a massive sense of scale, and grabbed your attention. the huge tannoys were very dynamic but i felt i was all bass and top in the room, there was to me hole in the mid. probably because the cabs were not in a corner so the response was tilted. again, one i would like to have listened to more, i couldnt really hear much in the way of fine treble but again the position of the speakers, and me in relation to them, is probably why.
chris's teeny speakers and sub did a good job for me. the sub was abit thuddy and one note, and the top of the fostexs was abit scratchy, but given what they were being asked to do as the contender from left field i thought the combo not half bad.
onto colins, it didnt grab me like eds and stephens did. i found it to be somewhat soulless. everything was there, but for me it didnt seem to have much in the way of life to the music. this is not quantifiable, it was just missing something that i was looking for, what that is i couldnt tell you. it was as if the music was too 'correct', too damped, if that makes any sense. which it probably doesnt. i dont know how to put it into words.
steves system was i think a little off from how i remember it, there was some hardness there that i wasnt expecting but it had a bouyant quality to it that kicked the music along nicely. maybe the little nva amp that was subbed in was struggling abit to drive the speakers, but it was still engaging.
mikes little pcl86 amp through colins other speakers was really nice, i enjoyed it. there was a lively sound to the combo that had a similar joi de vivre that i heard in eds system, it all came together nicely as a whole, and i would have liked to hear those speakers on the end of the p6 amps in colins system.
i only caught a bit of thomas's system before i had to go, but again there was a sense of scale and dynamic to the music, and i didnt hear the sidcup screech.
i only caught the barest bit of nicks 211, so i cant give opinion on that system
I know that hearing the above systems in the rooms they live in would alter my opinions, but i also think that the inherent characters of each were glimpsed in the compromise that is the owston function room. and we all want different things from our systems. for me owston is as much about the people and conversation than the systems.
apologies in advance if ive pissed anyone off.............