Manafort Trial

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Baggy Trousers
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#16 Re: Manafort Trial

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pre65 wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:59 pm
Baggy Trousers wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:52 pm
pre65 wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:33 pm Why do so many of us take it for granted that being deceitful and lying is just how politicians are these days ?
Come on Philip - you already know the answer to that!
BUT, why is it accepted ?
Because it is the popular conception of political behaviour.

Of course, this is a gross distortion of the average MP's conduct but given their general performance in recent times, particularly with regard to Brexit and the internecine warfare and quisling actions of the present government, politicians are doing little to help themselves. Even less if you consider their demand for more pay in view of the imagined increased workload arising from Brexit. I don't remember their offering a reduction of salary all those years ago when they abrogated their national responsibilities and much of their workload to Brussels.

Unsavoriousness has attended human politics from the earliest times but I do feel that things have deteriorated since the days when people entered politics as a public service and the present age of the career politician.
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#17 Re: Manafort Trial

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do-nothing Obama administrations
And what do you think is the cause of that?
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#18 Re: Manafort Trial

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Baggy Trousers wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 am Providing, of course, that these pay-offs did not come from Party funds.
No, you've already been taken in by the ( continuous ) propaganda coming out of Trump, Guliani et al here. The legal position on this, Cohen's lawyer was absolutely clear on this, on Newsnight, as are the legal blogs I've read - the source of the money is irrelevant. The key issue is whether the timing and intent of the pay-off to Stormy Daniels makes it of clear benefit to him in the final weeks of his presidential campaign. If it was ( as seems so ), then it becomes an illegal campaign contribution, even if it came out of his own pocket.
Baggy Trousers wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 am Despite all this activity and his curious exercise of politics, Trump remains generally popular with Americans,
No, this is just not true. About 35% of Americans think's he great & can do no wrong ; a few more percent are tolerating him in the belief he's doing something for working class people ; then there's about 40% who loath and despise him. Then we have about 20% left who the pollsters are trying to judge to see which way they will go and how many seats will be clawed back for the democrats in congress in November.
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#19 Re: Manafort Trial

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Baggy Trousers wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 am Providing, of course, that these pay-offs did not come from Party funds.
No, you've already been taken in by the ( continuous ) propaganda coming out of Trump, Guliani et al here. The legal position on this, Cohen's lawyer was absolutely clear on this, on Newsnight, as are the legal blogs I've read - the source of the money is irrelevant. The key issue is whether the timing and intent of the pay-off to Stormy Daniels makes it of clear benefit to him in the final weeks of his presidential campaign. If it was ( as seems so ), then it becomes an illegal campaign contribution, even if it came out of his own pocket.

Edit : actually I was wrong it's irrelevant, there's a subtle difference in the crime between what Cohen did and what Trump did , but it's still illegal :
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... aw-n903246
Baggy Trousers wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 am Despite all this activity and his curious exercise of politics, Trump remains generally popular with Americans,
No, this is just not true. About 35% of Americans think's he great & can do no wrong ; a few more percent are tolerating him in the belief he's doing something for working class people ; then there's about 40% who loath and despise him. Then we have about 20% left who the pollsters are trying to judge to see which way they will go and how many seats will be clawed back for the democrats in congress in November.
[/quote]
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#20 Re: Manafort Trial

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IslandPink wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:27 pm
Baggy Trousers wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 am Providing, of course, that these pay-offs did not come from Party funds.
No, you've already been taken in by the ( continuous ) propaganda coming out of Trump, Guliani et al here. The legal position on this, Cohen's lawyer was absolutely clear on this, on Newsnight, as are the legal blogs I've read - the source of the money is irrelevant. The key issue is whether the timing and intent of the pay-off to Stormy Daniels makes it of clear benefit to him in the final weeks of his presidential campaign. If it was ( as seems so ), then it becomes an illegal campaign contribution, even if it came out of his own pocket.


Despite having lived in The States for many years and continuing with a great affection for the country, I don't follow these things as closely as perhaps I should. From what you say, it may well be that The Donald is culpable and in which event, he should be subjected to the dictates of law as would be any one else. Although other people are not able to pardon themselves!

However, one thing of which I am certain is that he will not jump as that arch crook Tricky Dickie Nixon did. It will require the necessary might of both Houses to shift him from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
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#21 Re: Manafort Trial

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I do agree with you - he is so convinced of his own greatness and infallibility that he is a very dangerous man and will be hard to unseat. Witness his comments about the press being 'the enemies of the people' - which harks back to the 1930's and 1940's - we know who we are talking about there . What I hate about him most is his relentless efforts to sow discord and division across the country - I can't think of any president who has behaved like this - even back to the early part of the 20th century.

I never had the experience of living in the US, though I have visited on a number of occasions ( from 1988 to 2003 ) , and I feel it very sad that we are apparently losing the sense of excitement and optimism that was one of the key things most people felt on landing in there and travelling ( helped by the climate and landscape ). I know my older friend in Colorado ( he was a lecturer at University ) , who has always been a Republican voter, says that these are difficult times, and regards Trump as being 'beyond the pale' .

Where was it in the US you lived, Baggy ?
Most of my time has been spend in the areas from Colorado to California, with a couple of shorter trips to New England.
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#22 Re: Manafort Trial

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pre65 wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:33 pm Why do so many of us take it for granted that being deceitful and lying is just how politicians are these days ?
I don't Phil - and I think there many who are trying to do their job properly - these are the ones I look up to - call me old-fashioned !
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#23 Re: Manafort Trial

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IslandPink wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:17 pm Where was it in the US you lived, Baggy ?
Most of my time has been spend in the areas from Colorado to California, with a couple of shorter trips to New England.

I lived for a short period in upstate New York - couldn't stand the winters! Moved south to the Texas Hill Country which I quite enjoyed but found the area much too parochial in outlook although not as bad in this respect as Arkansas. Spent 15 years in South Florida which was brutal in the summer but delightful in winter. Nevada I quite liked; Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina I liked not at all. For some reason, California never appealed. All space cadets over there. I think I might have liked to have lived Down East; it is a pretty area but again, the NE winters can be harsh. It is a bit expensive too.

I agree that the spirit of optimism which once typified the American character to a measurable degree has diminished. The national psyche was deeply scarred by Viet Nam, the ripples from which are still radiating. Subsequent military engagements, particularly Afghanistan, have done little to restore national confidence. The affects of the bursting of the dot.com bubble were short-lived but the more recent sub-prime fiasco has had a more profound legacy. Additionally, the US is experiencing some of the decline in manufacturing seen here over the last 50 years. Detroit is almost a ghost town - something unimaginable not so long ago. I think some of this loss of confidence was exemplified in Gee Dubya's handling of the hurricane Katrina disaster. An absolute and disgraceful shambles. But every cloud . . . . in order to stimulate a lagging economy, George W Bush gave every taxpayer $1300. I put mine towards a Krell amplifier which, incidentally I no longer own, but the WAD amp I built in, I think, 2003, is still in daily use and still greatly enjoyed and still driving the speakers I bought in 1967. :D
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#24 Re: Manafort Trial

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Very sensible !
Meanwhile, Manafort trying to avoid his second trial by pleading guilty :
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... inal-trial
Another more junior campaign advisor gets some prison time for lying to the FBI :
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zo ... opoulos-is
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#25 Re: Manafort Trial

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Wow !
Manafort mustn't be too convinced about getting a pardon from Trump, has agreed to talk to Mueller -
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zo ... trial-plea
Gary O'Donoghue on the telly just said he must have something significant to give, otherwise he'd not have been considered for the pleas deal by Mueller. He commented despite Trumps latest tweets, the White House must be 'very concerned' about this development.
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#26 Re: Manafort Trial

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IslandPink wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 pm Wow !
Manafort mustn't be too convinced about getting a pardon from Trump, has agreed to talk to Mueller -
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zo ... trial-plea
Gary O'Donoghue on the telly just said he must have something significant to give, otherwise he'd not have been considered for the pleas deal by Mueller. He commented despite Trumps latest tweets, the White House must be 'very concerned' about this development.
Like so many others who lived under the Clinton/Bush/Obama administrations and the stultified politics then practised, I thought that a Trump tenancy of The White House probably would allow one of two things; either he would become a surprisingly effective President or he would prove a disaster; his polemical disposition would not seem to admit of anything in between. Regrettably, so far at least, the likelihood of my first thought seems improbable, the second, alarmingly prescient.

I don't know what has happened, but the stability which once characterised the political order of the Western world appears to have evaporated, leaving a vacuum of confidence and self-doubt. The current and thoroughly disgraceful state of the UK is an example of the latter. In my judgement, the responsibility for much of this - certainly in our case - should be laid at the door of politicians. Trump is not a politician and thus should be free of the parochial incentives which govern the behaviour of the career politician but, sadly, his approach, born of ignorance as much as a reforming zeal, has fared no better and we are the poorer for it with the futures of both the US and the UK becoming increasingly dystopian.

There was no shortage of substantive evidence to impeach Clinton - in fact, he was proceeded against but for reasons political rather than to do with justice, he was acquitted. I suspect that due to the probably more murky nature of what Mr Trump has been up to, things may be harder to prove. Nevertheless, I agree that The White House (or whoever represents the President's interests this week) is likely to be very concerned indeed. Nixon was persuaded to walk. The tenacious Mr Trump and the stubborn Mrs May will not budge until given a sufficiently hard shove.

As the Chinese say, we "live in interesting times". I hope I'm around to witness the denouement. :roll:
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#27 Re: Manafort Trial

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#28 Re: Manafort Trial

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IslandPink wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:25 pm Lots of meaty goodness in here :
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/am ... sia-stormy
I've tried the Buzz Feed site but like so many others which recently have excluded entry until one agrees to some cookie demands, I have declined to participate since I really don't understand and therefore prefer not to engage.
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#29 Re: Manafort Trial

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Content -

President Donald Trump’s former personal lawyer Michael Cohen was sentenced Wednesday to three years in prison after pleading guilty to tax fraud, campaign finance crimes, and lying to Congress. Prosecutors said some of those crimes were done on Trump's behalf and others were directed by Trump himself.

At his hearing in lower Manhattan, an emotional Cohen told the judge that he covered up "dirty deeds" for Trump in acts of "blind loyalty."

"The irony of today is I'm getting my freedom back," Cohen said, calling his years of working for Trump as "living in a personal and mental incarceration."

US District Judge William Pauley ruled that along with the three years for tax crimes and illegal campaign contributions — followed by three years of supervised release — Cohen also will serve two months for lying to Congress, but that will be served concurrently with his other prison time.

"Mr. Cohen pled guilty to a veritable smorgasbord of fraudulent conduct," declared Pauley before announcing his sentence.


Pauley also gave Cohen a $50,000 fine to acknowledge the "gravity" of lying to Congress in matters of national importance, he said, and ordered that he pay $1.39 million in restitution for his tax violations.

In the aftermath of the sentencing, the US Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York — which initially served the search warrants on Cohen's properties this spring and reached the first guilty plea deal with Cohen — also announced that it had reached an agreement not to prosecute AMI, the publisher of the National Enquirer, in conjunction with one of the illegal campaign contributions.

"As a part of the agreement, AMI admitted that it made the $150,000 payment in concert with a candidate’s presidential campaign, and in order to ensure that [a] woman [who alleged an affair with Trump] did not publicize damaging allegations about the candidate before the 2016 presidential election," the news release from the US Attorney's Office stated, contradicting the company's prior statements to the media. "AMI further admitted that its principal purpose in making the payment was to suppress the woman’s story so as to prevent it from influencing the election."

Cohen previously had told the court that he had helped to arrange that payment, for former Playboy model Karen McDougal's story, and had made the $130,000 hush payment to porn star Stormy Daniels "in coordination with and at the direction of" Trump.

In court, Cohen read a written statement, calling the sentencing "one of the most meaningful days of my life."

Dressed in funeral black, Cohen's family — including his wife, son, parents, in-laws, siblings, and a cousin — sat in the middle of the courtroom. His daughter sat just behind him.


Cohen painted the president as a person who had led him astray.

"Time and time again, I thought it was my duty to clean up his dirty deeds," said Cohen.


He said at first he'd been impressed by the business acumen of Trump the real estate developer, when he first started working with him in 2007.

"I now know there is little to be admired," said Cohen. "It was my own weakness and a blind loyalty to this man that led me to choose a path of darkness over light."

Cohen lied to the US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence — which, like Mueller, is investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election — about pursuing a Trump Tower in Moscow in 2016.


The details of the Trump Tower Moscow deal were first revealed by BuzzFeed News in May.

[Read more: Trump Moscow: The Definitive Story Of How Trump’s Team Worked The Russian Deal During The Campaign]

Cohen told both committees that the potential Moscow deal by the Trump Organization ended in January 2016 — but it was actually still being discussed within the Trump Organization in June 2016.

"My weakness can be categorized by a blind loyalty to Donald Trump," said Cohen.

"I take full responsibility for each act that I pled guilty to," Cohen said, "the personal ones to me and those involving the president of the United States of America."

Cohen had planned to travel to Moscow to work on the real estate deal and was arranging for Trump to visit, even though he told Congress the opposite last year. And he said he didn’t know of any discussions with the Russian government over the tower. Russian officials offered to organize for Cohen to meet with either Russian President Vladimir Putin or Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, prosecutors said.

Cohen lied, prosecutors said, to reduce the links between Trump and Moscow, and to limit investigations into links between Trump’s campaign and Russia.

“As Cohen well knew, Cohen’s representations about the Moscow Project he made to [Congress] were false and misleading,” special counsel prosecutors wrote. “Cohen made the false statements to (1) minimize links between the Moscow Project and Individual 1 and (2) give the false impression that the Moscow project ended before ‘the Iowa caucus and ... the very first primary,’ in hopes of limiting the ongoing Russia investigations.”

Mueller’s filing in this case revealed significant information about his investigation into Trump campaign ties to Russia’s efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.

[Read more: 5 Big Things That Robert Mueller Just Told Us About The Russia Investigation]

In that filing, for example, Mueller for the first time directly said that Trump was aware of activity during the campaign that is relevant to his investigation. He noted that the Moscow tower discussions came during “sustained efforts by the Russian government to interfere” in the general election.

Cohen spoke about his relationship with Trump, noting that "one of the most powerful men in the world publicly mocks me and calls me a 'rat' and a 'liar.'"


He also called out the president for creating a "false sense" that he can "weigh in on judicial proceedings that involve him."

"History will not remember me as a villain of his story," said Cohen.

Cohen apologized to the US public, saying, "You deserve to know the truth, and lying to you was unfair."

"The faster I am sentenced, the sooner I can return to my family," said Cohen. As he spoke about the impact of his criminal act on his family, his children started openly sobbing. A reporter passed a tissue to his daughter, Samantha.


"I am truly sorry and I promise I will be better," said Cohen, concluding his statement.

Pauley called Cohen's generosity to his family and friends laudable but noted, "somewhere along the way Mr. Cohen has lost his moral compass."

Federal prosecutors in New York, who charged Cohen with some of the crimes, said he should spend about 3.5 years in prison — the judge found that sentencing guidelines recommended 51 to 63 months. Special counsel Robert Mueller, who is prosecuting Cohen for lying to Congress, didn’t suggest adding on to that considering Cohen had assisted his investigation.





Michael Cohen arrives with his wife and children to Manhattan federal court.


Corey Sipkin / AFP / Getty Images



Michael Cohen arrives with his wife and children to Manhattan federal court.



Guy Petrillo, Cohen's lawyer, argued on Wednesday for leniency, telling the judge that Cohen "knew that the president might shut down the investigation." Cohen had asked for no additional prison time beyond that already served.

Nicholas Roos, who spoke on behalf of the US Attorney's Office of the Southern District of New York, asked the court to promote deterrence and said "even powerful and privileged individuals cannot violate these laws without impunity."


Jeannie Rhee, a prosecutor for the Mueller investigation into Russian interference in the election, also spoke on Wednesday morning in court, noting that Cohen had provided "credible" and "helpful" information to the special prosecutor.

Rhee said while Cohen had initially "intentionally repeated false statements to us," he had in meetings in September and on other occasions "sought to tell us the truth, which is invaluable to us as we seek to investigate what occurred."


Federal prosecutors in New York previously wrote that Cohen had assisted with the payments to McDougal and Daniels "so as to suppress the stories" and "to influence the 2016 election."

Michael Avenatti, the lawyer representing Daniels in her legal disagreements with the president over the hush payment (at which point she was represented by a different lawyer), sat in the back row of the courtroom. While waiting outside the courtroom, Avenatti joked that he was just "out for a holiday stroll."


Addressing Cohen's actions, Pauley made clear that Cohen's status as a lawyer meant that "should have known better." Despite Cohen's cooperation with the special counsel's investigation, Pauley noted that "that does not wipe the slate clean" and a "significant" prison sentence was appropriate.


"Each of these crimes is a serious affront against the United States," said Pauley.

As Pauley read the sentence, one family member said "shit" audibly. Cohen's wife and son held each other, crying. His parents sat stone-faced and held hands, his father in a wheelchair.

Cohen has until March 6 to voluntarily surrender to begin his prison sentence.
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