A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

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shane
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#46 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

Post by shane »

Steady on there Nick, this is a serious issue deserving consideration from our greatest minds. You can't get out of it that easily. Simply claiming that you need to spend more time designing some of the world's best hifi gear simply isn't good enough. You need to get your priorities sorted out, young man!






Or alternatively you could just ignore a bunch of old gits whinging about nothing....
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andrew Ivimey
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#47 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

Post by andrew Ivimey »

The Mostly Harmless Award for such mind-bogglingly primitive beings that they still think vinyl is a pretty neat idea...
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
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#48 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

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andrew Ivimey wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:38 am The Mostly Harmless Award for such mind-bogglingly primitive beings that they still think vinyl is a pretty neat idea...
Vinyl? Stopping using shellac was the mistake.
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pre65
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#49 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

Post by pre65 »

Nick wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:12 am Tell you what, you can all focus on what we call it, I will spend my time trying to make better things to listen to when you decide what its called.
You stirred up the debate Nick. :lol:
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Nick
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#50 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

Post by Nick »

pre65 wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:49 pm
Nick wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:12 am Tell you what, you can all focus on what we call it, I will spend my time trying to make better things to listen to when you decide what its called.
You stirred up the debate Nick. :lol:
Sorry, in what world is that true, you said:
Is a "bake off" (horrible term) not a form of A-B testing ?
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#51 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

Post by pre65 »

Nick wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:56 pm
Sorry, in what world is that true, you said:
Is a "bake off" (horrible term) not a form of A-B testing ?
Indeed, I made a remark (as above) and then you went on to question my reasons for said remark and it developed from there.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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#52 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

Post by Nick »

pre65 wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:10 pm
Nick wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:56 pm
Sorry, in what world is that true, you said:
Is a "bake off" (horrible term) not a form of A-B testing ?
Indeed, I made a remark (as above) and then you went on to question my reasons for said remark and it developed from there.
I see, so that logic explains some things. So if I call someone a idiot, and they respond, its the fault of the person who responds, not mine. There is a consistency here I can see.
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pre65
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#53 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

Post by pre65 »

It's your forum Nick, so you must be right.

I've better things to do at the moment.
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#54 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

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[youtube][/youtube]
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#55 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives

Post by Cressy Snr »

I think the problem we have with bake-offs, is the frame of reference.
Science tells us that in order for an experiment to be valid and for the results/outcomes to be worth the paper they are written on, there has to be a control against which everything else is judged, which is how it should be.

BUT... we have already seen from the robotic recording that we cannot trust our senses if the same piece of music is played again and again on different equipment. It all ends up sounding the same, not because it is all the same but because our brain makes everything the same.

Trust your ears cry the subjectivists - er..we can't.
Measurements are everything scream the objectivists - well yes and no. All depends on what you are measuring.

Trouble is if we like a particular presentation, we then (science says) have to explain our preference. If we suggest a set of things to listen for that explain our rationale behind our choice, then we influence what the others hear and they will hear them too, whether they like it or not. People are suggestible.

If we turn the bake-off process into a social gathering, we further complicate things. I have had people sidle up to me and completely ruin my enjoyment of someone's demo at Owston for example, by telling me me how crap something we are hearing sounds, when actually, to me it sounds pretty good. The doubt (intentional or not, it makes no difference) is then planted and I start to wonder.

I don't know of any solution to the bake-off conundrum except to listen to a variety of music, ie NOT playing the same music over and over. In fact playing a different track on each piece of gear, then running through with a different track again, so that no track is ever heard more than once. In this situation the mind has nothing to latch onto except the music itself and how it moves them or not as the case may be.

After all, this is art we are talking about. Science and engineering plays its part in the design and build but after that, it is the emotional connection that counts. The closer the sound of a piece of gear gets to hiding the mechanisms and actually putting the player(s) in the room with you, the better it is. There is no other criterion; how could there be? It cuts right to the chase.
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