Cables with SS and Valve Amps

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Cressy Snr
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#1 Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Cressy Snr »

Since I picked up the NVA A20/P20 combination last Friday from RD, I have been comparing a set of cables by substituting them into both a solid state and a valve amplified system.
Why do this? You may well ask. Well the Doc has a theory that cables will make more of a difference to the performance of a solid-state system than they will with a valve amped system, and as he had sold me an NVA A20/P20 pre power combo, then I was the ideal person to test the theory.

So I have completed the testing and here are the conclusions:

First, the cables in order of cost:

Interconnects:
Sound Cord
Super Sound Cord
Super Sound Pipe

Speaker Cables
LS2
LS5

Below is the system used
Image

Next post will show my findings so please do not put anything in between.
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Cressy Snr
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#2 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Cressy Snr »

OK so with the solid state system first.
Test tracks were:

Chico Hamilton -Strut, great for bassines and tinkly bits.
Petula Clark - Downtown - great for showing up space, soundstaging, air and vocal presence.
Ray Gelato Giants - That's Amoré - Brassy and dynamic jump jazz - fantastic for showing PRaT and instrument separation.

Starting off with the LS2 as the speaker cable, the tracks were played one after the other on both systems, using the different interconnects, starting with the least expensive, working to the most expensive.

Due to the balanced operation of my Barbarik monoblocks, the P20 passive controller could not be used with it and so the BTE passive, which has unbalanced as well as balanced outputs was used with both systems.
The interconnects were used between the passive controller and the power amps, interconnects from the DAC were not changed, which meant that I could be sure that any audible change in the sound would as far as possible, be caused only by the interconnects under test.

Using the Sound Cords with the A20, the presentation was great on all the tracks. The bassline on the Chico Hamilton track poled along beautifully as expected, the Pet Clark showed excellent presence to Petula's vocals and the widescreen stereo was exactly that...wide. The Ray Gelato track belted along, the interplay in the middle eight between the sax and trumpet setting the foot tapping like a good 'un.

With the Super Sound Cord, everything gained a solidity that showed up the Sound Cord as perhaps a bit thin sounding in comparison. In isolation, the Sound Cord is perfectly good, but the SSC took things up a notch. As I said, an overall increase in solidity was clearly evident, as was an increase in stage width, particularly on the Pet Clark. On the Ray Gelato, it was easier to hear the back of the studio and a few details such as little "yeah"s and asides between the band, which the SC had glossed over, were better resolved.

The Super Sound Pipe simply gave you more again, bigger staging, more musical sense, more fine details, and more bass power. Cleaning the muck off the window better than the less expensive variants.

So we have, with these three cables, a clear progression in overall sound quality, as you go up the range, in terms of cable sophistication and price. So far so good.

Moving on to the Barbariks and doing exactly the same thing....er....exactly the same kinds of difference were clearly evident, except that the Super Sound Pipe seemed to wake up the very top end of the valve system, whereas in the solid state system, the difference at the top had been there, but not as marked.

So the conclusion with interconnects is that in this test they affect the sound quality of a valve amp in the same way that they affect a solid state amplifier.

More to come.
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Cressy Snr
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#3 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Cressy Snr »

OK now moving onto the speaker cables.

Interconnect was standardized on the Super Sound Pipe as this was the interconnect that was best on both amps.
So starting off with the LS2 on the solid state system we had a baseline sound that was excellent on both setups, no problems there then. All three test tracks on both systems were played and sounded great, as they should. Both amps presented things differently as you would expect, but both were equally valid as a means of listening to and enjoying recorded music.

Where things got interesting was when I substituted the LS5 NVA cable into the solid state system. Up went the quality by another notch. The LS5 was an order of magnitude better on the NVA amp than the LS2 had been. It was a gobsmackingly good improvement.

Suddenly my Flatback Banned speakers vanished and there was just the music and the performers playing at the end of the room. The Ray Gelato which is an excellent Linn recording from the mid 90s hitched up its skirts and sprinted. The grin factor was off the scale and the dad dancing would have been highly embarrassing if the missus had come home and seen me. :lol:
RD can be sure I'll be buying these speaker cables off him....no brainer really.

Putting the same speaker cables onto the Barbarik Monoblocks, upped their performance too, but the differrence was I'm afraid nowhere near as clear as it was on the NVA A20, in fact I had to change back and forth between the LS2 and LS5 just to be sure that I was not imagining differences, where there were none. They were there, in the form of a very slightly better foundation to what was going on than there had been with the LS2; a little more body and solidity if you will, but that was that.

I was not hearing the expanse in soundstage depth, width and height, that had been clearly evident on the NVA amp, when LS2 was replaced with LS5. In terms of the price difference between the LS2 and LS5 cable, it would not have been worth the small improvement served up if I was using it with a valve amp.

More interestingly, the LS5 allowed the NVA A20 amp to outperform my Barbariks, so that it has now become the amp I use daily in my system (with LS5 as the speaker cable)

To match or exceed the performance that the A20 with LS5 speaker cable produces, I would have to go back a few years to my 2A3/6B4G single-ended monoblocks, but then I wouldn't have the power.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#4 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

This I had expected and hoped for. The speaker cable test is the one with the output transformer in the way that I expect less differences to show (if any).

BUT I am very glad that cable differences are shown as I get fed up with being told "a cable is a cable, electrons don't know it has been changed" :roll: and people hearing differences being called deluded or mad.

You will probably now be asked "did you double blind it, if not it is expectation bias" :roll: :roll: :roll:

EDIT - this was written before the speaker cable test above was posted, but I am gratified it is the test result I had expected and explains away (at last) the conundrum over the battle of cable believers v non believers YOU WERE BOTH RIGHT!!!!
Last edited by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cressy Snr
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#5 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Cressy Snr »

Some people will never accept that cables make a difference. IMO they don't make or break a system but the differences they make are perfectly clear to anyone with a pair of ears.

On the question of valve amps and speaker cables vs SS and speaker cables, I would turn it on its head and say that with a valve amp, the performance is heavily dependent on how good your output transformers are, rather than what speaker cables you are using, and generally, with OPTs of either the single ended or push pull variety, the more you pay, the better the sound you get.
It is clear (from my little experiment anyway) that messing with expensive speaker cables on the end of a valve amp is a mug's game. You are not going to make much of an improvement by changing cables; change the OPT however and you might begin to get somewhere.
A grand on a high quality set of OPTs will make a far bigger difference than a grand spent on fancy speaker cables, if you have a valve amp.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#6 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

That is true to a degree, and I think is proved by the original Audionote Company (not the company that ripped off the name) producing very expensive silver cables using wire that matches the very expensive silver wire used in their output transformer coils.

Yes better quality wire and better quality iron cores will always make things better at a very high cost, but never as good as not being there in the first place, that costs nothing.

The only valve amps I have ever liked are low power *proper* class A single ended (with a character) and a well made OTL (much less character). Sadly as I said before you can never make a commercial OTL that passes safety regs, so build it yourself or kit is the only way around this.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#7 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Well that created a sensation like a damp squid. Here we are answering the question and resolving the argument that has plagued EVERY forum. There should be shouts of EUREKA, yet silence. I suppose no one believes you snr.
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#8 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by steve s »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:51 pm Well that created a sensation like a damp squid. Here we are answering the question and resolving the argument that has plagued EVERY forum. There should be shouts of EUREKA, yet silence. I suppose no one believes you snr.
I think most of us already where aware of that to a point, but Steve has summed what we are aware of very nicely
I'm my solid state days speaker cables did change the sound
The last 20 years for me has been about px25/ px4/ vt25 set amps, on the whole speaker cables have made little difference with the exception of an Owston meet listening to a rather expensive pair.

Output transformers on the other hand are far more critical .. until you get to somewhere like Owston where you hear very different views on what people prefer.
And in a good amp even the cheaper transformer make a very decent sound..

At the first wigwam show I made a point of using twin and E with a connector block in the middle
It upset quite a few people who came in !
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#9 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Daniel Quinn »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:51 pm Well that created a sensation like a damp squid. Here we are answering the question and resolving the argument that has plagued EVERY forum. There should be shouts of EUREKA, yet silence. I suppose no one believes you snr.
Wrong forum to create any kind of controversy, I should imagine few people on here would disagree . Though I remain ambivalent about interconnects I am quite happy to accept what sensible people reporting honestly hear .
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Ali Tait
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#10 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Ali Tait »

I think there is an element of people wanting to keep on believing what they wish to, in order to carry on arguing about it on forums, as many seem to derive considerable pleasure from doing so. Truth be hanged! :-)
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#11 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Daniel Quinn »

There are very real disputes vis-à-vis cables on all the less intelligent forums ,many of them fail to take in to account the type of amplification employed. I would not be so presumptuous as to suggest they are being disingenuous
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#12 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by IslandPink »

Cressy Snr wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:27 pm It is clear (from my little experiment anyway) that messing with expensive speaker cables on the end of a valve amp is a mug's game. You are not going to make much of an improvement by changing cables; change the OPT however and you might begin to get somewhere.
Very much NOT what I have found Steve, although I will happily accept that output transformers are very important.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#13 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Would help if you explained what you had found.
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#14 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by IslandPink »

This will be brief as I'm packing for a holiday and very busy.
I DIY-ed various cable over the years and always found differences when using valve amps - very noticeable in fact. Most of my efforts were in 'improving' the materials, so I eventually ended up with cotton-covered 140x40ga litz supplied by my transformer manufacturer. This gave great midrange and treble.
Then I bought some relatively cheap commercial cables that wiped the floor with mine in the bass. This led to a bit of a turnaround. Eventually I bought the three-levels up version from this manufacturer which transformer the system ( at a price ) . OK I am hedging my bets here because it'll be like dropping a grenade into the forum - this is TQ Ultra-Black.
Ps. at the time I first used the TQ UB I had some Furutech Ref 2 on loan and this stuff was even more expensive but no better than my home-brewed cotton/litz specials.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#15 Re: Cables with SS and Valve Amps

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Are you talking about speaker cables or interconnects.

AND your amp is?
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