Phono bake-off

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iansr
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#181 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by iansr »

"Uninformed logic" ? Who were you quoting ? Try reading my post again and then thinking about what I might be getting at. Unless you are a post-human your experience is worth zilch in the context of this particular debate. And that's pretty much the point . . .
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IslandPink
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#182 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by IslandPink »

Glad I'm going on holiday.
Wouldn't it be nice to have the forum back as it was ?
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Ali Tait
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#183 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by Ali Tait »

Indeed.
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Nick
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#184 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by Nick »

iansr wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:56 pm "Uninformed logic" ? Who were you quoting ? Try reading my post again and then thinking about what I might be getting at. Unless you are a post-human your experience is worth zilch in the context of this particular debate. And that's pretty much the point . . .
But the real problem Ian before we get into arguing about arguing is that as much as one may want blind testing to work with audio (and TBH, my life would be simpler if it did) it just doesn't work as a method of making decisions (either for design or purchase) about audio kit. It almost consistently allows us to declare that there is no difference between two bits of kit, when there is. Now some would argue that it shows there is no difference, but if you believe that, then sell all your kit, go and spend £1000 at Richer sounds and you will have as good as you can get.

Blind testing is a trap, it teaches you to disbelieve your ears, trust your ears, work out what bits of music allow you to tell certain things about the kit you are testing and keep practising by doing it as often as you can. Thats how you get a trained ear.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#185 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

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iansr
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#186 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by iansr »

Cressy Snr wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:51 pm
iansr wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:29 pm There's some serious uninformed bollocks being posted here. Here's a clue. Hands up those people who think that when called upon to make a rational decision the result is entirely based on logic?
What has logic got to do with art?

What has appreciation of hi-fidelity music reproduction got to do with science?

Since when is it rational to prefer one type of presentation over another?

Art/Music reproduction cannot be reduced to numbers and measurement, when the sound coming out of it is being listened to by human beings. The heart rules the decisions, not the egoic mind.

There's no group of people quite as bad audiophiles except maybe teachers, for making a simple job ten times harder than it needs to be.

Why turn a phono stage comparison into a bureaucratic nightmare? Why try to intellectualise the process out of existence?

Bring the phono stages set your levels and just bloody listen to them. Let your hearts be your guide?
I said it was a clue and you didn't get it. I have no interest in intellectualising the process. As previously stated my suggestion for a blind listening was entirely for my own benefit. However i couldn't remain silent when I saw people suggesting that what they experience in the conscious part of their brain is reliable. Of course it would not matter if your "experience" was unreliable in a consistent fashion, but unfortunately the construct that you think of as yourself is subject to the contrariness of your subliminal brain functions. So as far as the comparison goes, I was interested in making it just a tiny bit harder for my brain to play tricks on the construct I call me.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#187 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

If your brain plays tricks on you when listening to a phono stage I would go to the doctor and get yourself blind tested for it. Don't waste our time if it is your problem.

Just listen like the rest of us and trust your ears and your brain.
Cressy Snr
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#188 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by Cressy Snr »

iansr wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:41 pm I was interested in making it just a tiny bit harder for my brain to play tricks on the construct I call me.
Only problem with this is that you are not your mind.

This all sounds like The staff and senior leadership team meetings that used to frustrate the hell out of me. We used to spend hours debating points of order and matters of bloody procedure until I lost the will to live. Nothing ever got done.

The refrain I got from one leader that really got my back up was "the trouble with you Steve is that you are too simple minded, everything is simple to you but in reality things are just not that simple...you can't just..." blah blah ad infinitum. This little argument was about how many pencils the kids should be allowed per term. I had a meeting with Social Services about a troubled family background I needed to be at, so I left them to it, I had better things to do. Eventually I effectively left the profession as this bullshit allied to constant measuring of my competence against the exam results of my classes (which incidentally were "too good" at key stage 1 to allow key stage 2 to show "value added" at the end of Y6) eventually drove me over the edge.

This arguing about prodedure/ methodology just shows how little things change with people. It doesn't/cannot work in the field of creativity, so why do people continue to do it?

This type of obstreperous, obstructive, red tape generating, character trait should not be allowed anywhere near anything involving the creative arts, and that includes the field of hi-fidelity music reproduction.

This phono bakeoff is DEAD simple. A few blokes go to David's place next Sunday, they listen to a few phono stages, have a laugh, a few beers and some nosh, declare a winner, or not then go home having had a good time.

Ditch the ego, under these circumstances. It questions everything and ruminates endlessly, in order to justify its existence. It's good in some circumstances to question the order of things and the ego can be useful; science could not function without it.

Unfortunately a phono stage bakeoff is not about science, it is about listening to music. Subjecting what you hear to a barrage of internal scrutiny/red tape, then externalising it, is neither use nor ornament.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#189 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by JohnG »

I am up for a few individuals looking to have a enjoyable day, with a bit of banter, a bit of hospitality, that I will happily contribute to the cost off.
If all goes swimmingly well, we might even get the chance to hear a few Vinyl Recordings replayed through a few different electronic devices.
We may even get asked to express our Subjective thoughts on the effect of the electronic devices on the replay and if we think one has a more Positive effect than another in managing the air in the room.
I think this is a great idea, hope i'm selling it.
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#190 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by Cressy Snr »

JohnG wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:31 am I am up for a few individuals looking to have a enjoyable day, with a bit of banter, a bit of hospitality, that I will happily contribute to the cost off.
If all goes swimmingly well, we might even get the chance to hear a few Vinyl Recordings replayed through a few different electronic devices.
We may even get asked to express our Subjective thoughts on the effect of the electronic devices on the replay and if we think one has a more Positive effect than another in managing the air in the room.
I think this is a great idea, hope i'm selling it.
You're selling it to me John. :D
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iansr
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#191 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by iansr »

Cressy Snr wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:51 am
iansr wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:41 pm I was interested in making it just a tiny bit harder for my brain to play tricks on the construct I call me.
Only problem with this is that you are not your mind.

This all sounds like The staff and senior leadership team meetings that used to frustrate the hell out of me. We used to spend hours debating points of order and matters of bloody procedure until I lost the will to live. Nothing ever got done.

The refrain I got from one leader that really got my back up was "the trouble with you Steve is that you are too simple minded, everything is simple to you but in reality things are just not that simple...you can't just..." blah blah ad infinitum. This little argument was about how many pencils the kids should be allowed per term. I had a meeting with Social Services about a troubled family background I needed to be at, so I left them to it, I had better things to do. Eventually I effectively left the profession as this bullshit allied to constant measuring of my competence against the exam results of my classes (which incidentally were "too good" at key stage 1 to allow key stage 2 to show "value added" at the end of Y6) eventually drove me over the edge.

This arguing about prodedure/ methodology just shows how little things change with people. It doesn't/cannot work in the field of creativity, so why do people continue to do it?

This type of obstreperous, obstructive, red tape generating, character trait should not be allowed anywhere near anything involving the creative arts, and that includes the field of hi-fidelity music reproduction.

This phono bakeoff is DEAD simple. A few blokes go to David's place next Sunday, they listen to a few phono stages, have a laugh, a few beers and some nosh, declare a winner, or not then go home having had a good time.

Ditch the ego, under these circumstances. It questions everything and ruminates endlessly, in order to justify its existence. It's good in some circumstances to question the order of things and the ego can be useful; science could not function without it.

Unfortunately a phono stage bakeoff is not about science, it is about listening to music. Subjecting what you hear to a barrage of internal scrutiny/red tape, then externalising it, is neither use nor ornament.
I've been trying to convey one simple point here which you have blown up into all manner of nonsense and attributed it me! Give me a break. I'm perfectly happy to enjoy an afternoon of casual listening to some phono stages. I tentatively suggested a blind listening because I would have personally found it quite an interesting thing to do, for the reason I've explained.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#192 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

And we have explained why it is not, which you responded to, which we have responded to, which you ha..............etc
jayman67
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#193 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by jayman67 »

christ you lot are worse than women!
whats it going to be like when your all in the same room?
its not hard is it? a simple get together and listen to a few phono stages.
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Thermionic Idler
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#194 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by Thermionic Idler »

karma67 wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:51 pm christ you lot are worse than women!
better hope my wife doesn't see that she'll have your guts for garters :lol:
karma67 wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:51 pm whats it going to be like when your all in the same room?
Probably a bit like Owston I reckon
karma67 wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:51 pm its not hard is it? a simple get together and listen to a few phono stages.
Yep, that. Shall I bring some records - got some cracking Speakers Corner Mercury Living Presence reissues - Stravinsky Firebird from 1960 will utterly blow your mind. In terms of original pressings - how about a USSR Melodiya recording of Shostakovich's 11th issued on EMI which is terrifying beyond belief.
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cressy
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#195 Re: Phono bake-off

Post by cressy »

I have a copy of sing along with max bygraves I could send..
If it doesnt clear the room then the phono stage playing it is the clear winner
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