Nothing In Particular

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Nick
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#10561 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by Nick »

I would like to see fuel cell electric vehicles become more prominent.
Why?
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#10562 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by simon »

Nick wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:01 pmI can see the point of a plug in hybrid if 90% of your journeys fit in the battery, but not like both of us where most of the day is outside the battery range. You are just using petrol to carry some discharged batteries around.
I can see that, but the hybrid system recharges the batteries during the journey converting "wasted" energy. Quite what the efficiency of if the energy conversion is would be interesting to know.

The batteries on the latest generation Prius are improved so lighter apparently. I've noticed an improvement in both performance and economy over the old system. I'm averaging 62mpg over 25k miles, more than I ever could get out of a turbo diesel. Last week I drove the 25 miles back from Wakefield cross country and averaged 83mpg. Not exactly night and day better than traditional petrol and diesel, but the though of going back to 40mpg say sounds expensive!
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#10563 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by simon »

Nick wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:08 pm
simon wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:57 pm
Nick wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:55 pmLooks even better when I subtract my £250 a month fuel bill.
How do charging costs compare? I've no idea.
Guessing, if a 60Kwh battery will give you 250 miles my 80 mile trip would use 20kwh. Say a night rate of 11p per kwH, that means a days commute will cost £2.20 or say £45 a month. Currently I am paying about £250 for diesel.
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Nick
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#10564 Re: Nothing In Particular

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I can see that, but the hybrid system recharges the batteries during the journey converting "wasted" energy.
Good point, I had ignored the regenerative breaking.
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#10565 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by Ali Tait »

Nick wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:01 pm
Ali Tait wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:51 pm
Nick wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:52 am From what I can see that Lexus is similar to the 330e, in my case BECAUSE of the miles I do, neither makes a lot of sense, most of the journey would be not using the battery, so not much of an overall gain. The Tesla 3 on the other hand, with my 80 miles a day makes more sense as the saving in fuel would not be trivial.
The Lexus is more of a performance hybrid than being focussed on economy- cheap to run for a car of its type rather than being cheap to run full stop. I’m just after something reliable that doesn’t cost the earth to buy and will do large mileages with no major issues- Lexus seem to be a good bet for that.

Given the mileages I do I don't see it’s worthwhile for me to buy new, I would be just throwing money away.
Yes, I can see that, but not sure what the extra complexity of the hybrid gives you in that case (other than a spare 50 bhp or whatever, which may be your goal). I can see the point of a plug in hybrid if 90% of your journeys fit in the battery, but not like both of us where most of the day is outside the battery range. You are just using petrol to carry some discharged batteries around.
Yes no disagreement there, but it does get me a 341bhp 3.5l V6 with a sub 6 second 0-60 that has very reasonable running costs for such a car, and is very quiet and refined and good to go long distances in. I also spend a goodly amount of time in stop start traffic, which with a light foot I can run purely on batteries.

I’m also considering a 3.0d XF. Not sure how the diesel thing will go in the next few years though.
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#10566 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by ed »

from a different angle, and knowing precious little about car batteries...

I've got a fair bit of experience with lithium in regard to model aircraft and I do know there are risks, the realisation of which I've witnessed a few times. Does anybody know how the manufacturers have addressed these risks in car batteries?
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#10567 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by Nick »

I think its something they are aware of

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/16/1862 ... -model-s-x
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#10568 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by Neal »

Lithium ion battery technology is not advanced enough yet to interest me in EVs. The density needs to at least double and the cost needs to come down by 4 or 5 fold over current prices. They are simply too expensive and don’t go far enough on a charge. Factor in a 50% reduction in range during winter, issues over vendor lock-in compatible charging points (Tesla) and concerns on crash safety I really don’t want to be an early adopter.
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#10569 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by simon »

Ali Tait wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:04 pm I also spend a goodly amount of time in stop start traffic, which with a light foot I can run purely on batteries.
Not sure it'll work quite like that. Yes the hybrid plant switches off when you come to a halt, and mine will run on the battery upto about 25mph if I'm light on the accelerator. But the battery will discharge reasonably quickly, especially at higher speeds and the engine kicks in to recharge the battery anyway. So there's no free lunch, but the system is clever enough to save a lot of fuel. I can do 3 or 4 mile runs across town at 90odd mpg, especially if the engine's warm. I think this is where the hybrids excel, I think it's less clear cut on motorways where turbo diesels start to come into their own.

I think they do encourage the driver to drive more efficiently - I'm always trying to beat a certain target, just one of those things. But then put it in sport mode and look at the surprise on people's faces ;-).
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#10570 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by pre65 »

Nick wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:08 pm
I would like to see fuel cell electric vehicles become more prominent.
Why?
Because (to me) it seems like a better idea than plug in electrics. But only if there is an infrastructure to support refueling.

I know that making Hydrogen is not environmentally friendly, but neither are some forms of electricity generation.
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#10571 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by Nick »

Because (to me) it seems like a better idea than plug in electrics.
Again, why?

The problems of storing and transporting bulk hydrogen are far from trivial. Neal mentioned concerns on crash safety for EV, I would say they are far greater for Hydrogen. The energy density is greater I agree, but not so much when you include the spherical container for it.
But only if there is an infrastructure to support refueling.
But there seems to be less than 6 refueling points in the UK at the moment (from what I can see, could be wrong).
I know that making Hydrogen is not environmentally friendly, but neither are some forms of electricity generation.
But some forms of electricity generation are, that's the point. I would have thought it would make more sense to synthesize gasoline instead of liquid hydrogen.
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#10572 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by pre65 »

Hydrogen powered vehicles.

PROS.
Long Driving Range. With a full tank of hydrogen gas, you can travel nearly 300 miles. ...
Quick Refueling. ...
Only Emissions Are Water Vapour. ...
Can Be Made by Renewable Sources. ...

CONS.
Lack of Refueling Stations.
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#10573 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by IslandPink »

Good points.
Nick wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:47 pm But some forms of electricity generation are, that's the point. I would have thought it would make more sense to synthesize gasoline instead of liquid hydrogen.
Spooky, I was only wondering the other day, if it were possible using eg. solar energy, to create petrol from raw materials including CO2 from the atmosphere.
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#10574 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by pre65 »

If using synthesised petrol (and diesel ?) would the exhaust emissions be any cleaner than they currently are ?
Last edited by pre65 on Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#10575 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by Ali Tait »

IslandPink wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:02 pm Good points.
Nick wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:47 pm But some forms of electricity generation are, that's the point. I would have thought it would make more sense to synthesize gasoline instead of liquid hydrogen.
Spooky, I was only wondering the other day, if it were possible using eg. solar energy, to create petrol from raw materials including CO2 from the atmosphere.
Yes it is.
https://www.livescience.com/62784-co2-s ... e-air.html
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