A New Semi-Omni

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Neal
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#16 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Neal »

Bloody hell Steve, keep posting...
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Ali Tait
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#17 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Ali Tait »

+1. We all like to follow your progress Steve.
Cressy Snr
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#18 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Cressy Snr »

Greg wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:27 pm Steve, I hate this situation, but I'm not sure you are getting what others might think about your latest speaker designs, maybe because there has been a lack of honest expression.
It'd be interesting to know who these "others" are. That's be a good start.
I thought your 'Banned' speakers were very out of balance with a very recessed midrange and a flabby bass and a total lack of punch.
Apart from the Graham Central Station track which was a bit of a laugh, and on which which they showed their mettle in a most satisfactory manner, they ripped through the Ray Gelato track separating everything out wonderfully, with PRaT in spades and made ultra short work of Mark King's fast bass playing on the Level 42, whilst at the same time showing up the subtle percussive elements that made the whole track work.
What seems to be being forgotten here is that I was there, sitting down and hearing them do their stuff at the same time as everyone else and not once did I hear any evidence of slowness or flab in the sound. Expecting "punch" from a six inch driver, firing away from the listening position in a huge room is frankly unrealistic in my view.
I'm really not wanting to upset you. I just want you to think it through carefully. In my view, the route you are now taking is a backwards move.

I disagree.
Your original Met had dynamics, pace, extension, detail and a real sound authority. I've said before, disregarding the tweeter helper, the very best and absolutely listenable full range speaker I have ever heard. I'd happily use your Mets in my system.
They are an entirely different set of compromises and I have never said anywhere that I won't be building these, they are a vital part my range of speakers and I will continue to do them. Glad you like them :D
Just saying.........because I'm concerned that others should be 'just saying' but somehow it doesn't happen.
Again I would be interested in who the "just saying" crew are. Then I could answer their criticisms with a quick I couldnt give a fuck what you think sunshine kind of reply. :mrgreen:

Omnis are like electrostatics, they are a set of compromises that some may like and some may loathe. Let's take a look at a bit of constructive criticism that came from two local listeners about the distance of the presentation when compared to front firing speakers. That was taken on board and it was cured by adjusting the value of the crossover capacitor so that the tweeter on the front was giving more output lower down. Job done.

Again, what is being forgotten here, is that the omnimets have been fully documented, all the rationale and design decisions, governing driver choice and the type of bass loading, have been fully explained, properly backed up by in-room measurements, and are based on well-established work done in the past. They are not a throw together and hope design and they do exactly what I wanted them to do, sounding exactly as I wanted them to sound.
Folk can like my end result or not. Their perogative, but the quality of the design work that went into them cannot be challenged.

Listeners who's ears I trust, have given them their endorsement, when heard in their living rooms. In fact they have been put in the same sonic bracket as the lowest priced German Physiks omni with the DDD bending wave omnidirectional driver, itself descended fom Lincoln Walsh's original 1960s onmi driver concept. These cost ten grand last time I looked.

The work has been done, the sound is how I want it and the icing on the cake is that they respond superbly to being driven by a good solid state amp. (thanks for that little bit of advice Colin) In fact, the match between the Flatties and NVA amps is one made in heaven. There's no reason to suppose that results wouldn't be equally good with other high quality SS amps. I would have loved to have heard them on the end of Phil's Nelson Pass breadboards, and would love to hear them driven by Nick's big SS monoblock bruisers.

They really don't like weedy push pull valve amplification with high output impedance trying to drive them to high volume, but conversely they absolutely adore low powered single ended drive, sounding "awesome" as someone put it, when put under the gentle guiding hand of a good DHT.

What they don't do is image as well as a point and squirt speaker, but neither do other speakers of this type; that is the compromise you are either willing to accept or you're not. Case closed M'Lud. Take it or leave it, I don't really give a stuff. To be frank, I'm weary of it all. I do what I want, I trust my own ears to know what's what.

As I said right at the start of this thread, I feel quite uncomfortable now about discussing any sort of rationale for these new designs, which are intended to address the lack of low bass the little 'uns produce, whilst still allowing themselves not to have to be placed in the middle of the room to work properly.
It's a shame but it can't be helped sadly. The tag line to my avatar feels somehow appropriate right now.

Anyone wanting to help with auditioning and testing is welcome at my place anytime they want, once I get the new designs up and running. They can go to people's houses, in their systems by all means. Small meets, trusted ears and evaluation loans are the way forward for these designs.
They won't be at Owston. In future, I'll come for the social aspect rather than bring anything. I'll post some pics when they are finished but that's as far as it goes from me now, where builds of any description are concerned. Sorry chaps.
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Ray P
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#19 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Ray P »

Steve, I enjoyed your slot at Owston; please keep sharing your journey with us.

Ray
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#20 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Cressy Snr »

I'm genuinely sorry about this Ray et al, but I'm afraid, that particular train has left the station.
I really have had enough of this bollocks and I'm not going to change my mind I'm afraid.

@Neal...If you intend coming up north to our Ant's to collect the G99 when he's finished it, you are welcome (if you are not too pushed for time) to come and have a listen to the existing omni speakers, with the NVA A20 amp, in a proper domestic setting.
Might be very interesting :wink:
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Ray P
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#21 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Ray P »

OK, I respect your position Steve. It's rare that I make it your far north but should I do so I would love to impose upon your hospitality...

Ray
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Greg
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#22 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Greg »

OK, let's get down to the basics. I commented exclusively on what I heard at Owston. In that environment, I thought your speakers did not perform well and sounded to me as I have described. In my original post I made it clear that I acknowledged that in a living domestic place they might sound wonderful. Something you make foundational in your claims. I have no problem accepting that.

As for what others comment, you know what happens at events like Owston. People mutter amongst themselves, expressing their observations to each other but ultimately fail to publish their views honestly on the forum. So, when I have the courage to do just that, actually representing What I think and what others have said to me in private, I get lambasted in more than one thread by several people who write in total ignorance. They were not there. They do not know. They need to shut the fuck up.

So, to reconsider what I wrote, I don't retract any of it. I have explained what I heard, being my honest assessment. It would be more than helpful if others in future were actually honest about what they hear at events like Owston. Generally, attenders are too frightened to be honest and just post thank you platitudes which are very nice but absolutely not helpful to the equipment owner or anyone else, because they can sque even the simple listeners perseption. I thought AT was about being honest and not the BS we get elsewhere.

Now Steve, just because you have had one honest post which challenges your apparent Nirvana, that doesn't need you to have an emotional hissy fit which is basically what you have done. What a waste of energy when all I commented on was Owston.

Interestingly, you state that your speakers don't work well with low powered high impedance valve PP amps. Bizarre. That is exactly what you demonstrated them with.

Furthermore, in what I see as nothing more than imaturaty, you go to lengths here to say you've had enough and will not publish your stuff further and then promptly publish your latest design on the detestable HFS forum. That is a bit forked tongue, don't you think?

Finally, it's not about you. It's not personal. If it was I would regret what I have aided you with in the past and I don't. Rather, I relish what you have done with a box of bits I gave you.

So, I thought you were my friend, hope I still am yours, and hope being honest is ok. The way to go.
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Nick
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#23 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Nick »

Interestingly, you state that your speakers don't work well with low powered high impedance valve PP amps. Bizarre. That is exactly what you demonstrated them with.
Yes, I was pondering that as well, and if I remember correctly you sorted some problems in the front end. Those were the amps that we had questions about at Colins the other year I believe? I suspect the same may have been part of the problem with the Cubes as well.
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#24 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by chris661 »

Perhaps we need a thread for honest opinions.

Lets face it, though, Owston is a difficult room and we often play unfamiliar music.

For me, Steve, your speakers in that room had a bit much upper bass (80Hz-200Hz) but I didn't feel like they dropped that low. I know that room has a peak at around 80Hz (floor-to-ceiling resonance, I suspect), and I also know that smaller domestic spaces will prop up the low end, particularly when you back the speakers up to a wall. I imagine they sound very good in the bass in your living room, just as my Behringer monitors have more guts about them when the room is helping a little.

The midrange presentation was different to what I'm used to. I can see why you like it, but I'm not sure it's for me. Each to their own on that one. The tweeter seemed pretty good, but again, difficult to tell with unfamiliar material.

Chris
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#25 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Daniel Quinn »

I was going to let this lie , but as you have stated in what is a mealy mouthed apology you stand by every word of the post below , I felt this overwhelming public service desire to dissect your diatribe .


Steve, I hate this situation,
Peculiar beginning. What situation, as far as I can see there is no situation , Steve demonstrated a new direction for his speakers , you were not particular impressed upon hearing them at owston. That is it ,end of , that is all you needed to say , how that constitutes a situation I did do know.

but I'm not sure you are getting what others might think about your latest speaker designs, maybe because there has been a lack of honest expression.
Lack of honest expression , according to Ali T and others you owston lot are salt of the earth blokes who decided a long time ago that honesty was the best policy and you could all be honest with one other without pricking ego’s


Of course, in your home they may sound wonderful, but frankly, at Owston they didn't connect with me (maybe it was just me). I thought your 'Banned' speakers were very out of balance with a very recessed midrange and a flabby bass and a total lack of punch. Of course, at home they may be totally different, but at Owston they really were a shadow of your big Mets that I last heard and very originally enthused about. It seems that Dave continues to enjoy them accordingly.

I have already stated , that if your being honest instead of an arsehole with an agenda , you would have simply said , I did not like them at owston , I note you have now suggested that the amp used at owston may have been a problem . Why wasn’t the benefit of the doubt extended in your first post .

I'm really not wanting to upset you.
Bit late for that

I just want you to think it through carefully. In my view, the route you are now taking is a backwards move. Your original Met had dynamics, pace, extension, detail and a real sound authority. I've said before, disregarding the tweeter helper, the very best and absolutely listenable full range speaker I have ever heard. I'd happily use your Mets in my system. Unfortunately I can't say that about your latest projects. To my ears, they simply didn't do it.

This is the unbelievable bit , you liked his first speakers ,but based upon you hearing his new ones once in a less than ideal environment , you are now prepared to ignore all his previous knowledge and expertise and prioritise your opinion of this 1 time listening to denounce his current direction as fundamentally flawed .

Just saying.........because I'm concerned that others should be 'just saying' but somehow it doesn't happen. Of course,
Again an eerie reference to others holding their tongue despite the famous owston spirit of honesty and as I have eluded to , it doesn’t matter if others didn’t like them all that can be concluded is that didn’t sound good in that room with that equipment on that day , a large less than ideal listing space.

I am bloody sure that anybody else who didn’t like them will not have been so arrogant as to dismiss Steve’s new direction as fundamentally flawed.

Here is my speculation , your dislike of RD is so overwhelming encompassing , that Steves advocacy of the cubes and NVA and his recent foray in to omni’s as made you lose sight of your manners and you have posted a diatribe of unbelievable unjustified bollocks in the name of being honest .

it's your's and the Missus' ears, so if you like it, I'll FO.

This is the only good thing you said and I wish you would .

Ps. There is of course another explanation and that is don’t design speakers without recourse to NVA amps , I certainly wouldn’t . :mrgreen:
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#26 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Cressy Snr »

So...
I work my arse off designing and building a set of speakers, lots of testing, lots of different ears are consulted, said speakers are taken round various listening environments, folks who's ears I trust are listened to and appropriate modifications are made until the end result is very good.
The design is set out, thoroughly explained, measured in-room, then re-assessed at my request by PM, (thanks guys) in another different listening room near the east coast, just to confirm that it will work in various sizes and shapes of room. Brutal honesty was a part of this process and as a result of this ("well they don't bloody image for a start" :lol: ) I have a speaker that bloody well works and sounds the biz.

Now suddenly it is a load of crap.
Sorry I'm not having it!

What has come out of the OmniMet and I have accepted it and have moved on, is that after over ten years of entertaining with my wit and repatree, countless schematics and eye watering amounts of money spent (drum roll)

I CAN'T DESIGN AMPLIFIERS THAT WILL DRIVE LOUDSPEAKERS TO A REASONABLE VOLUME!
YES FOLKS YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now having had this road to Damascus bit of insight, I have purchased an NVA A20 amplifier with P20 control unit.

For £300 (probably a hundredth of the amount I have spent on valves, transformers et bleedin' cetera) I have an amp system that blows anything I could come up with into the weeds...UTTERLY!

Not only is it a stonkingly good product if you have efficient speakers, but it has also shown me in no uncertain terms just how utterly beguiling and gorgeous the sound from my Flatback Banned speakers really is. Yes I am in sonic heaven, nirvana whatever you want to call it and I ain't deluded, fooling myself or anything remotely like that.

Another result of this realisation that I'm not a valve amp designer, is that I have shipped 99.9% of my valves up the M62, where they now reside, in a good home, with someone, who will appreciate them.

So back to the subject of speakers. In complete contrast to my amplifier design ability, I am good at speakers and you'd better believe it. My designs might not be to everyone's taste; sound is subjective you know, but I know what I'm doing in that department and I am just not having any of the Owston nonsense.

You cannot judge the sound of anything in that place. It is a social/show and tell event, not a bloody hi-fi show and it is the people who hump their systems there that make the event what it is. You CANNOT make blanket judgements about the worth or not of a speaker system from listening to it at Owston....end of. We all know that so why jump straight into a thread about a speaker design with a judgement that rubbishes an entire concept before I even had the chance to put up a single drawing.

Would you have done this to Colin, Scott, Nick? I think not; it would never have entered your head, to question their work. Ask yourself why this would never have entered your head...think about it for a bit then report back with something resembling sense.

I'm not the plucky amateur when it comes to speakers, I am right up there with Scott and Colin...believe me when I say that because it is the truth. I may write about things in simple terms that are easily understandable, that's because I was a teacher in another life, but I am absolutely not a speaker design simpleton...far from it.

This thread is a complete bloody mess and you are now calling me two-faced for putting it on HFS. Look at the state of the damn thing and you might get why it is on another forum. The reason it is on there is because I know that it will not be polluted with agenda driven cobblers. It is nobody's business where I want to publish my work. That decision is for me to make, and me alone.

I met Richard in person two weeks ago and he is one of the nicest chaps you could meet. He had come up from the smoke to collect the G99 turntable from out Ant and while he was at it, he brought the A20/P20 and a few cables for me to try. He was full of humour, and interesting stories and observations. I like his acid wit, and his utter commitment to his "my way or the highway" method of doing things. He's the Steve Jobs of the hi-fi world. :mrgreen:

Since he reappeared on this forum, I am not going to go ito what has happened as he is well capable of defending himself, but I have been called a grovelling apologist, sickening sychophant, and any number of other things that I cant be arsed to go and look up and frankly I've had enough, it's basically that simple.

I'm sorry that perfectly innocent members here are a bit upset that I don't wish to publish any more of my speaker designs on AT and it pains me to have to put my foot down, but here this...The only way there is ever going to be anything else from me in terms of speaker designs on here is if those who don't know what the bloody hell they are talking about, stay out of the thread, when it comes to discussing the pure design aspects of the things.

Will this happen...I doubt it.
The ball is in your court.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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chris661
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#27 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by chris661 »

Cressy Snr wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:54 am Would you have done this to Colin, Scott, Nick? I think not; it would never have entered your head, to question their work. Ask yourself why this would never have entered your head...think about it for a bit then report back with something resembling sense.
Not sure who you're talking to, Steve, but I don't mind so much who's kit I'm commenting on, so long as my comments are taken in the proper context.

ie, "With THAT speaker positioning in THAT room, with THAT amplifier/source/material, I found I THIS to be good/bad/lacking/over-emphasised".

There are a lot of variables in that equation we must consider alongside the speakers themselves. That's not to say any speaker design is flawless, it's just that we need to keep a perspective on these things.

Chris
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#28 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Cressy Snr »

chris661 wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:18 pm
Cressy Snr wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:54 am Would you have done this to Colin, Scott, Nick? I think not; it would never have entered your head, to question their work. Ask yourself why this would never have entered your head...think about it for a bit then report back with something resembling sense.
Not sure who you're talking to, Steve, but I don't mind so much who's kit I'm commenting on, so long as my comments are taken in the proper context.

ie, "With THAT speaker positioning in THAT room, with THAT amplifier/source/material, I found I THIS to be good/bad/lacking/over-emphasised".

There are a lot of variables in that equation we must consider alongside the speakers themselves. That's not to say any speaker design is flawless, it's just that we need to keep a perspective on these things.

Chris
Chris mate I was not talking about you. You can be sure of that. I shouldn't be talking about anyone really; it is not in my nature but I have to fight my corner on this issue.
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chris661
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#29 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by chris661 »

No worries, Steve.
I'm not sure there's much fight to be had, to be honest. Reading back over it, I can see that Greg's comments could've been worded in a more kind manner, but it also seems to me that momentum very quickly built against him.

Anyway, dragging the thread back around to it's original purpose, got any drawings of this new design of yours?
I like the floor-mounted bass driver idea. Pushes the floor bounce frequency right out of the bass, and should sound quite smooth in the bass and lower-mid as a result. Any drivers in mind?

Chris
Cressy Snr
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#30 Re: A New Semi-Omni

Post by Cressy Snr »

Well Chris,
Apparently some people (presumably me) take criticism of their work as a rebuff and can't handle it, and the fact that I am now associated with the enemy presumably means I am out of favour.
So I'm afraid I'm left with very little alternative but to resign my membership here.
There will be no further communication from me on this forum.
Goodbye.
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