A Question of Right and Wrong.

Dedicated to those large boxes at one end of the room
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10552
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#16 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Cressy Snr »

I think Nick that as you all know, my "problem" is that I am not a rock fan by any stretch of the imagination and they made every one of my soul and disco records sound like they were being played through a megaphone six inches from my ears.
Black male tenor voices such as Levi Stubbs of the Four Tops and females such as Aretha Franklin at full pelt were not pleasant.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#17 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

pre65 wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:49 pm
Cressy Snr wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:39 pm
Phil,
What you like and what you don't like is irrelevant. A speaker either plays music or it doesn't. Personal preferences don't come into it. Quality is not what YOU like, Quality is Quality, it exists independently of what your personal preferences are. Anyone can recognise it when they meet it.
Steve, ever since I got into the DIY thing (about 2006) I have been following your progress on DIY matters.

Every thing you build gets better with time, and effort, and then you decide it's not good enough and build something new, and then the process starts again, and again.

So, if your current setup is as good as you can get, how crap was it at the beginning ?

Presumably at each stage you were happy with the results,judging by your posts, so where was "quality" along the line ?
A relative matter!

User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15708
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#18 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Nick »

There is no right or wrong in speakers.
My problem with that, is that its a variation of the idea that all opinions are valid. Just because everyone is entitled to have a opinion, doesn’t mean they are all correct. Now if you were to say that people have preferences and different priorities when it comes to anything including speakers, then I would agree with you.

Your statement is easy to prove false. Take a pair of two way speakers you like, swap the connections to the bass and treble unit. Listen to them (quietly). Is that speaker still some sort of right? No, then there is wrong in speakers.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10552
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#19 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Cressy Snr »

Quality was not there Phil, hence the need to keep going. Hi fi was the aim of all those builds. Music is now the aim. My goals have changed as have my expectations.
Much given to either hype and hysteria or tragic depressive behaviourI was living in an illusory world.
Those days are gone, and for me the past is non existent, nothing more than a memory trace that has no effect on anything I do.
The big Mets, the OmniMets, the stereo Barbarik and the Barbarik Monoblocks are all that matter to me now.
Dave is enjoying the big Mets (designed by Scott in their first iteration incidentally) and I am loving the OmniMets and the monoblocks. Paul is hopefully still liking what the stereo Barbarik does. That is pleasing.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
User avatar
Ray P
No idea why I do this anymore
Posts: 6294
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:18 pm
Location: Somerset

#20 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Ray P »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:15 pmI ask the question which one plays music even in a crap hi-fi way and which one plays hi-fi in a crap music way.
In my experience, having heard both and owned one of them, they are both capable of reproducing satisfying music.
Sorry, I couldn't resist!
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#21 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

So, there are different grades of quality ?

And do we decide by individual preference where we are on the quality scale ?

If not, how is it measured, and by whom ?
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#22 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

Ray P wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:01 pm
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:15 pmI ask the question which one plays music even in a crap hi-fi way and which one plays hi-fi in a crap music way.
In my experience, having heard both and owned one of them, they are both capable of reproducing satisfying music.
Well done Ray, thank you for your empirical observations. :)
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10552
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#23 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Cressy Snr »

pre65 wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:05 pm
Ray P wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:01 pm
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:15 pmI ask the question which one plays music even in a crap hi-fi way and which one plays hi-fi in a crap music way.
In my experience, having heard both and owned one of them, they are both capable of reproducing satisfying music.
Well done Ray, thank you for your empirical observations. :)
Odd that Phil, because you have done little but criticise the Doc for his empirical approach to speakers.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10552
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#24 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Cressy Snr »

pre65 wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:02 pm So, there are different grades of quality ?

And do we decide by individual preference where we are on the quality scale ?

If not, how is it measured, and by whom ?
You don't measure it, it just is.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15708
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#25 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Nick »

Every thing you build gets better with time, and effort, and then you decide it's not good enough and build something new, and then the process starts again, and again.

So, if your current setup is as good as you can get, how crap was it at the beginning ?

Presumably at each stage you were happy with the results,judging by your posts, so where was "quality" along the line ?
Lets use numbers, they make things simpiler.

1. Every thing you build has a higher number (one more that the last one).

2. And then you realise that a larger number can exist, so you build something else with a larger number (one more than the last one)

1 and 2 are actually the same thing, and being the same thing they don't contradict each other, which I believe you thought they were.

3. So if your current setup is the largest number, how low was the number in the beginning?

Well, there is no reason to believe that any particular number is the largest it can be, its just the largest number you have got to so far, and you would expect it to be more than when you started.

4. Presumable at each stage, you think the number is the highest yet, judging by your posts, so where was quality along the line?

Quality is the direction (vector) that you are denoting with increasing number, the level is increasing, but the direction is constant.

I know myself, that every time I start a new design, I make sure I have a clear set of goals in mind to try and achieve, and those goals are based on a ever increasing (or so I like to believe) understanding what makes a good hifi system. Just making something because it seems a good idea has no direction, its just random wandering. Often its only after you have pushed a little further is it possible to understand that better exists.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#26 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

Cressy Snr wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:08 pm

Odd that Phil, because you have done little but criticise the Doc for his empirical approach to speakers.
It might seem like that Steve, but no.

I have not criticized Richard for what he says, only for the way he says it, over and over and over again, and his outright refusal to deal with awkward questions.

I like to hear anyone's opinion, but I don't want to be bombarded by it day after day.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#27 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

Nick wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Just making something because it seems a good idea has no direction, its just random wandering.
I seem to remember someone once saying (from memory so forgive me if the words are not exact), I like building things (hi-fi) and if they sound good when I've finished that's a bonus.

Sort of where I am.

A bumbling amateur who has no fixed objective and makes things as and when he feels like it, sometimes they amaze me. :wink:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15708
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#28 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Nick »

So, there are different grades of quality
Actually, yes, there are. You are using the word quality in a way that I realised 25 years ago is invalid, you are thinking about quality as some form of metaphysical essence that something is imbibed with in a platonic sense.

I learnt that this is wrong (I used to have the same idea) once a BS5750 consultant pointed out that a burger at MacDonalds is higher quality than the finest home cooked meal. Quality means nothing if it can't be repeated, McDonalds can make the same burger 100 times and each will be (to some defined tolerance) identical. Once you understand that idea, you will realise that you dont mean quality, you mean something else, and that something else is a lot harder to define in any way that actually makes sense and can be used in a practical fashion.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#29 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

The word "quality" was not my choice, but your explanation helps. :)
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#30 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

It sounds like we have to go way back to the basic question of what is music.

For me photography is a good analogy. The same thing can be photographed many times, very few capture the essence of the thing. When it is got right there is an Ah! moment, but it is the same thing being photgraphed. So is it the camera or the photographer or the object. (Schrödinger's cat)

Musically I am only interested in the Ah! moments, and NO complex crossover speaker has ever given it to me. The Kan on occasion has done it and also given me yikes! and FFS! wince moments, but has never failed to INVOLVE me good or bad. A LS3/5a just gives Urrrrrh zzzzz moments, nothing about it involves me good or bad, and that is what filters do, they kill the music.

I wrote about it once :lol: (again)

You know the human being is a strange creature. We are talking now. I talk to you, you talk back to me, and there is something going backwards and forwards between us, communication of information, this is reality. When we go to a concert, the singer or orchestra on the stage cares about how the audience feels, this is an interaction in reality. You go to a concert because you want this kind of interaction or reality. The communication of the note structure as it goes up and down, or moves from major to minor key, when they are singing or playing is communicating emotion and creating an emotional reaction in you the listener. And my voice when I am talking to you, and the inflections I am putting in my voice, are communicating to you things about me that are not in the words. That is what all forms of sound are, the music of life.....and the problem I believe with Hi Fi is we have lost the ability to perceive this reality or to compare what we are hearing with the reality and communication of real life. All the time we are walking around or working we are listening to reality. Yet when we go home and switch the Hi Fi on, we also switch into another part of the brain in order to actualise and intellectualise the experience.....we sit there thinking "wow, what a beautiful holographic image; you know that high frequency is really clean, and the bass is really deep" do you think this at a concert? NO you have an emotional experience! You are just there, and you perceive it.
Last edited by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply