Split discussion on subwoofers

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chris661
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#1 Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by chris661 »

Thought I'd split off from the "Sub Woofers" thread, since it would appear that the discussion between the good Doctor and myself have derailed it. Sorry about that.

Here's the last post.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:17 pm
chris661 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:28 am
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:26 pm
Pointless discussion as I wouldn't have had a sub in the first place having established empirically that they a musically crap.

So until you can get me to listen to your system we will have to agree to differ. But as I say at the moment from your posts I would be wasting my time trying to find music.
Right, so as soon as I get close to something, you call it a pointless discussion. I see where this is going, but for some reason I persist.

In the context of this particular system, there is no midrange driver on the planet that would produce the bass that is required. Therefore, some help in the low frequencies is an absolute requirement. So, what's better? A system that stops at 100Hz, or one that uses subwoofers?

I can tell you which one goes out to gigs and pays the bills.

Chris
What the feck are you on about, close to what. This is just as stupid as the waste of time conversation with Moose. I say subs are bad for music, get the speaker right in the first place. You disagree and throw loads of mumbo jumbo at me, I say don't waste my time with it use your ears. you just continue with it not ONE mention of a piece of music. I say we are wasting our time until I can get my ears to it, but from the way you post and what you do for a living I doubt you would even recognise it. And you say we are getting close to something, yes indeed an exercise in stupidity :roll:

Music is sound, sound is heard with ears, pleasure is detected in the brain, so you use charts and test gear, makes sense doesn't it :roll:
Close to you seeing that subwoofers might be needed in some cases. To reiterate - there is no midrange driver on the planet that will produce the low end that is required of this system. Do I go without the bass, or do I add subwoofers?
Are you aware of what I do for a living?

Chris
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#2 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

There is absolutely no musical hi-fi reason for ever using them, unless you want unreality and bent music.
chris661
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#3 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by chris661 »

Oh, dear.
So it looks like every live (amplified) concert you've ever been to has had sound that's "unreal" and "bent".

Seriously, though, Orinoco Flow by Enya (for example) has content down to 20Hz. To produce that realistically, a subwoofer is basically mandatory. Unless, that is, you've found a wonderful way of making a 6" midbass driver produce frequencies that low at useful SPLs without sounding distressed.

A test that we can all do at home:
- Play a 16Hz test tone out of the speakers.
- Increase the volume.
You should only hear things rattling in the house (and maybe feel the floor move if you've got some serious low-end capability). If you can hear any tones, you're hearing distortion.

Note that sine waves are great at heating up voicecoils and bottoming out drivers, so start quiet. Attempt at your own risk etc etc.

Chris
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#4 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

That is different, that is Public Address / PA, different set of compromises. We at home can't do what they do, and they can't do what we do. PLUS I have never seen a stadium PA with sub woofers :lol: :lol: :lol:

I have owned companies in both markets so I know I am afraid.

Bollocks to test tones, do it with music.
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#5 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by chris661 »

You haven't been looking very closely, then.
There's only one stadium-grade speaker system I know of that can be used without subwoofers, and that's the Danley Jericho series. Those are pretty rare. If you can name others, I'd be interested to hear about them.

With the exception of very small-scale pub gigs, every live music event I've attended (and mixed for) have featured subs.


Anyway, do you have a way of producing that Enya track properly? All the way down to those bottom notes?

Chris
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#6 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Cressy Snr »

I think the problem here Chris, is that we are up against the fundamental truism, that it is impossible to recreate the concert hall/ live venue experience in the home. Once we accept this and work with what we have, then that enables clear thinking and we can write a spec for the system we are designing.
IMO a sub is an effects machine; nothing more: for that purpose, it is very effective, and in a home theatre system or as part of a modular PA set-up for small venue/nightclub use, a set of active subs underneath the main PA, powered by class D amplification, is a cost effective method of flapping the punters' trousers, giving them a visceral experience and getting the joint jumping - literally. The big venue flying rigs will have whacking great bass reinforcement at ground level to give the punters that chest thumping welly that live music demands.
Nothing wrong with that, and if you were hiring PAs out to major bands and didn't provide that, you'd be out of business in ten seconds. BUT.....it ain't hi-fi in the conventional sense. A PA would be a sonic disaster in a living room and apart from that, the cops would be round pronto arresting the noisy b'stard perpetrators :wink:

In the living room, there's more to the sonic experience than trouser flapping bass. You might be able to get sine wave bass at subterranean levels, but what about the texture, tone, timbre of bass instruments....yes even synthesised stuff. For example Analogue Moog bass has a particular tone and texture and if you want to hear it at it's best, get a copy on vinyl of the album "A real Mother" by Johnny Guitar Watson. This 1978 slick, funk fest goes low, growly and is impossible to keep still to.
OK there may or may not be half an octave to be had lower but if the system cocks up that Moog growl in order to give that extension, then something is lost, and that something is often the music itself.
So for the sake of four notes at the very bottom, the rest of the sonic experience gets fooked up. I'd rather hear those four notes a bit softer than what's on the recording or not at all, and enjoy the music, than engineer those frequencies in and be forever on edge, wanting to fiddle with levels, losing the purpose of the system, which is to listen to music through. It's all a question of priorities and compromises, a few Hz vs the other 19,970.
We are using science here to reproduce an art form and if we fail to engage sufficiently with the art side of the equation, then the equation is faulty and will fail to work. The godawful sound of some of the expensive systems I've bought/heard in my own long experience of this industry is an unfortunate testament to that fact.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#7 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Bass bins aren't sub woofers, do you want one of those in your room.
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#8 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by chris661 »

Cressy Snr wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:59 pm OK there may or may not be half an octave to be had lower but if the system cocks up that Moog growl in order to give that extension, then something is lost, and that something is often the music itself.
I honestly believe that, while it can be difficult to get a sub integrated well, it isn't impossible. I see your point about compromise. Sometimes I agree. Right now, I'm just listening to the little Fostex drivers in PR enclosures. They reach down to 50Hz, which is fine for background music. If I'm watching a film or want to turn it up, I'll connect up the processor (which normally lives in my PA system) and run the sub. The effect is two-fold: the little Fostex drivers aren't working as hard (I cut them off around 90Hz), and I gain bass extension. It took a bit of work to get the sub working nicely with all the room effects at play, but I've got something pretty good now.


Doc, bass bins are subwoofers. Both are dedicated speakers for producing around 80Hz and down.

Both of you, take a look at the Gedlee speakers. They're HiFi speakers, built with directivity control and low distortion in mind and as a result, they use PA drivers.
Rest assured, I've tried my PA system in the living room. Sounded great. Like a HiFi system, but headroom and dynamics like nothing else.

Chris
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#9 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Cressy Snr »

chris661 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:53 pm Rest assured, I've tried my PA system in the living room. Sounded great. Like a HiFi system, but headroom and dynamics like nothing else.

Chris
I hope the neighbours were out :lol: :lol: :lol:
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#10 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by chris661 »

Cressy Snr wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:19 pm
chris661 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:53 pm Rest assured, I've tried my PA system in the living room. Sounded great. Like a HiFi system, but headroom and dynamics like nothing else.

Chris
I hope the neighbours were out :lol: :lol: :lol:
At the time I was staying in an old house with very thick stone walls. Great fun.

Steve, will you be coming to Owston?
It's been a while since I've seen you (and the rest of the gang), will be good to catch up.

Chris
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#11 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Cressy Snr »

Yes I'll be definitely there on the Saturday. May do Sunday but I've not decided yet
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#12 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by chris661 »

Excellent, I'll see you on the Saturday.

Chris
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#13 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

"Doc, bass bins are subwoofers. Both are dedicated speakers for producing around 80Hz and down."

WRONG!!

Different set of compromises, or should be. Proper stadium PA bass bins have fold out wings, you wouldn't even fit them in your living room, and dangerous and potentially lethal in a domestic situation.

Example - true story. Mid 1970 concert PA by Cerwin Vega. 18inch driver folded horn bass bins with wings. All set up, still a couple of hours to the sound check, starts to rain, roady rolls a joint and shelters out of the rain in the bin, nods off, found after the sound check dead with blood coming out of his ears - very domestic :lol: :lol:
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#14 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by chris661 »

Those horns are old technology. Things like W-bins haven't been used in a professional system for decades.
The fold-out wings gained a little efficiency when the operator was too cheap to get a proper stack as is required with front-loaded horns.

If you'd like to look into modern PA systems, things like Danley's Tapped Horns are a good start. You'd do well to read into what companies like Nexo and L'Acoustics are doing, too.

I'll stand by my statement that bass bins are the same as subwoofers, thanks. Different set of compromises between PA subs and home subs, sure, but the idea is the same - to reproduce low-frequency content.

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#15 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Well Cressy just told you you are wrong as well, so you obviously wont listen. Anyone who is pursuing music and not effects will know who is right when they listen.
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