Sub Woofer

Dedicated to those large boxes at one end of the room
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15707
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#136 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Nick »

Nick seems to come down on either side depending on how he feels or who he is talking to
I don't believe there is a "side". I repeat:
I measure everything I can, I listen to everything I can. I get as much information as I can from both sources to direct my designs and modifications. What the problem with that?
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#137 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

It is a dichotomy that is in conflict, you cannot walk the tightrope. You can see this from forum conversation. There is no compromise, you are either subjective or objective, with the proviso of paying lip service to the other side and adding the word "predominantly".

I have a position that test gear and what it entails is for the early stages of product design, which in my cases is largely done for us with application notes. I have no need for that as nothing new improves on what I all ready have, so all I need is tuning, and that is subjective. You (it looks like) have been looking at new ground, so I forgive you your objective nature :mrgreen: But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways, so the bullshit from the like of Moose is just attention seeking "look at how clever I am" bullshit.

If you have a problem and the objective and subjective offer different solutions, which one do you choose.
User avatar
andrew Ivimey
Social Sevices have been notified
Posts: 8307
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
Location: Bedford

#138 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by andrew Ivimey »

Why on earth should we share taste and flavour if we can't ALL agree on anything else! The artistic world is not full of disagreement and schism eh! Let's try 'populism'. That's really fundamental.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
User avatar
ed
retired
Posts: 5384
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:01 pm
Location: yorkshire
Contact:

#139 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by ed »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 6:55 pm You (it looks like) have been looking at new ground, so I forgive you your objective nature :mrgreen: But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways, so the bullshit from the like of Moose is just attention seeking "look at how clever I am" bullshit.

If you have a problem and the objective and subjective offer different solutions, which one do you choose.
But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways,
How on earth do you know what I'm playing with to make such a statement??

and when I ask you how you converse with your peers in technical terms, a reasonable question given the nature of the turn of conversation, this response is laughable:
You have in fact hit a reason for the problem, just that fact that you ask such a question shows how far from reality you people have come
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
User avatar
Scottmoose
Needs to get out more
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:03 am
Contact:

#140 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Scottmoose »

Well, if we've come a long way from reality Richard, judging by the B&Ws that you modified you'll need a lengthy session on the couch. A few of us heard them last weekend.
'"That'll do," comes the cry of the perfectionist down the ages.' (James May The Reassembler)
Website www.wodendesign.com
Community sites www.frugal-horn.com & www.frugal-phile.com
User avatar
andrew Ivimey
Social Sevices have been notified
Posts: 8307
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
Location: Bedford

#141 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by andrew Ivimey »

It's barkingly obvious too, surely.

Ears.... they're all the same? DrB's and mine. Ed's Scott's and anyone else's.

Nope!

Let's say for a moment that citizen A and citizen B have the same ears and the same experience of music but one is a dedicated Marxist Leninist and the other is Boris Johnson - they aren't going to agree are they!
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#142 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Well something ain't right as the many people who have heard them here and and in their own systems will testify. But it happens, as I said to Nick they are for modding that is the point of them so he will go through the process of padding the tweeter more, maybe the last person who had them changed the pad, anyway it will be a good process as Nick will understand them more, where as your sick little brain is just looking for excuses to diss me and and nva - good luck with that :lol: .

If people continue to tell lies I will just copy my PMs with Nick to this thread.
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#143 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#144 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

ed wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 7:22 pm
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 6:55 pm You (it looks like) have been looking at new ground, so I forgive you your objective nature :mrgreen: But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways, so the bullshit from the like of Moose is just attention seeking "look at how clever I am" bullshit.

If you have a problem and the objective and subjective offer different solutions, which one do you choose.
But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways,
How on earth do you know what I'm playing with to make such a statement??

and when I ask you how you converse with your peers in technical terms, a reasonable question given the nature of the turn of conversation, this response is laughable:
You have in fact hit a reason for the problem, just that fact that you ask such a question shows how far from reality you people have come
Nothing I have read apart from Nick shows any new paths. You don't understand the answer because you are so far away from the reasoning from it. I find this all the time with people who have their test equipment stuck so far up their arses they cannot perceive anything else.
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#145 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

andrew Ivimey wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 7:15 pm Why on earth should we share taste and flavour if we can't ALL agree on anything else! The artistic world is not full of disagreement and schism eh! Let's try 'populism'. That's really fundamental.
With music reproduction taste there is much variation, mainly due to basing absolute judgement on what you have heard *so far*, but also there is preference which is why such a variety of product is sold. At no point have I said my way is the only way, all I CAN say is that when people try a vast majority change, as witnessed in the threads I have linked to.

But we can all get trapped into the ego of certainty, an open mind is paramount. I no longer explore much as I have less available time both in the present and the foreseeable future due to age, and I really can't be bothered anymore. I have reached a take it or leave it stage.
User avatar
ed
retired
Posts: 5384
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:01 pm
Location: yorkshire
Contact:

#146 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by ed »

ed wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 7:22 pm
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 6:55 pm You (it looks like) have been looking at new ground, so I forgive you your objective nature :mrgreen: But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways, so the bullshit from the like of Moose is just attention seeking "look at how clever I am" bullshit.

If you have a problem and the objective and subjective offer different solutions, which one do you choose.
But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways,
How on earth do you know what I'm playing with to make such a statement??
You haven't answered the question!
Nothing I have read apart from Nick shows any new paths. You don't understand the answer because you are so far away from the reasoning from it. I find this all the time with people who have their test equipment stuck so far up their arses they cannot perceive anything else
Why should I write to confirm that I am pursuing new paths when it is you that is saying that we are playing with existing ways....In truth you don't know what I'm doing so I contest that you cannot justify
But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways,
When I asked how you converse with others you replied
Why the feck should I, they have nothing to teach me. My discussions about products is about music and its subjective interpretation
You just can't have it both ways....so I repeat

'how do you know what I'm playing at'..that justifies you saying
But no one else here needs it, they are just playing with the existing ways,
I'm sorry I have to repeat it but you seem to be missing the question
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
User avatar
The Stratmangler
Shed dweller
Posts: 2890
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:50 pm
Location: Rossendale, Lancashire

#147 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by The Stratmangler »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:55 pmFind music at last
With what I heard on Saturday, I'm left wondering where it fucked off to.
My SDS drill makes a more musical noise when I'm drilling holes in masonry.

Cue the usual bollocks about "Doc Haters" .......
Chris :happy3:
User avatar
ed
retired
Posts: 5384
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:01 pm
Location: yorkshire
Contact:

#148 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by ed »

An observation:

RD appears to believe that any body that uses test equipment would be an 'objectivist'. First define objectivist, but even if you don't define it the generalisation is rubbish whatever definition you use.

I use test equipment but I don't consider myself an objectivist(using a general understanding of the word)...

The following is an extract from my web page:
Final designs have been arrived at by empirical methods and are the result of many cycles of listening and adjusting. We firmly believe that the frequency response graph does not necessarily identify the best sounding loudspeaker. Although computer measurement and testing is employed, at Hand Made Audio the final arbiter of a good design is a pair of human ears. In this respect it should be your ears.
This paragraph has been on my web page for 10 years, so I consider myself a subjectivist that uses test equipment for some tasks.

Somebody here seems to be tarring people without cause.
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#149 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Read from bottom up

MESSAGE HISTORY:
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Wed May 03, 2017 7:34 pm
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

I don't blame you, the man is an arse!
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Wed May 03, 2017 7:23 pm
by Nick

So much for keeping things private until we get to the bottom. I took those speakers over to Colins as he has the more powerful mosfet amps at the moment.

I mistakenly assumed that Scott would realise that I wanted him to not post. I am sorry for that.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Wed May 03, 2017 12:21 pm
by Nick

Yes, though I don’t use low powered valve amps here normally, I just build them when people want them, I like rock and don't like any of the high efficiency speakers I can afford. So the closest i get to low powered amps for the last decade or so is the A2 211 Set I use now and then that is good to about 35W.

From the perspective of using the doping to prevent the bass units from working in the area where they suffer cone breakup, so its possible to use them without any low pass filtering I can agree it seems to work fine. likewise I can't think of any reason why the steel plates would not be beneficial, though I didnt hear these speakers without them so I cant talk about what actual effect it did or didn’t have, but it certainly had no obvious bad effect.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Wed May 03, 2017 11:59 am
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Anyway the tweeter padding is just adjusting how much tinsel on the tree, the main thing I want to convey (the tree itself) seems to be working. The solidity and non wadding of cabinet and the doping of the bass / mid so no crossover. Yes because of doping and IB / acoustic suspension they will never be suitable for low powered valve amps, that is not the point of them.

It is Doc mods so not having to mod would be not the point, the point is getting them right for you, and then the next bloke and then the next bloke.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Tue May 02, 2017 12:27 pm
by Nick

I will try and look at the resistor this week.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Tue May 02, 2017 12:06 pm
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

I will build and supply a 2m set of LS5, so puts it in the middle of the range. New so will need running in. Speakers haven't been used for 3 months so will need shaking up to get them going again, a couple of days of good usage should do it. It is because the doping settles over time.

Can you do the resistor before the cable arrives. It seems the TQ is not so strange as to create what you are hearing.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Mon May 01, 2017 10:22 pm
by Nick

Sorry, 2m will be fine. And yes, I should have said resistor, my bad.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Mon May 01, 2017 6:50 pm
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Its not cap need changing that will be right it is padding resistor, at the mo 12 ohms, it can go up to what ever is needed.

Again how long cables!!!!
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Mon May 01, 2017 6:48 pm
by Nick

Ok, if you are up to it send some cables, and I will see how it goes and if needed tweek the tweeter cap.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Mon May 01, 2017 5:15 pm
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Can I send you cable out of interest, and I have had odd reports of TQ cable. What lengths.

The doc mod speakers are very much what is needed in each system. If these were your build and reported this I would say change the padding resister on the tweeter to higher value. Change them if you want. Tweeters are easy to get out as it is rubber based glue, a chisel tapped in at the edges will release them.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Mon May 01, 2017 5:07 pm
by Nick

The cable was some tq Blue. Nothing special just what was there. The imaging and soundstage was very good and they were very fast. But the tweeter was the big problem.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Mon May 01, 2017 4:40 pm
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

They should be right back to the wall in most acoustics, if the bass is a little forward in the mix or a bit muddled they should be inched away from the wall until the mix drops into shape. Image change is created by increasing toe in until it is what you want. Your tweeter result is a mystery, others have had them at home and that has never been mentioned and I don't have that effect myself, they have been used now for two years, though in all cases with nva speaker cables. What speaker cable do you use and how long do you use.

Yes they are not efficient, not for use with SE valve amps for sure. I expected your mosfet to be good with them.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Mon May 01, 2017 4:05 pm
by Nick

I have been thinking what to say, I dont think I can get on with them, but I wanted to discuss this with you in private.

First impressions was they need a lot of power to get to the sort of volume I normally listen to at. The 25W F5 amp was only just enough, so I tried the 200W mosfet which went loud enough but more about that later.

Lack of bass was the first impression, though I got that fixed by putting them up against the back wall of the room.

But then all I could hear was the tweeter being over-driven because of the 30-40W I was having to push into them to get to the sort of volume I would normally listen to.

Somewhere in there was something interesting going on with the midrange, but I couldn’t get past the sound of the tweeter.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Mon May 01, 2017 2:01 pm
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

OK I give in to temptation, what are they like, do you need any set up advice.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:31 pm
by Nick

Arrived safely. Not had the chance to unpack yet, will do tomorrow. Boxes all look sound so should be fine.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:46 am
by Nick

Cool. Will let you know when they land.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:44 am
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Speaker just collected by UPS, should be with you tomorrow.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:00 pm
by Nick

Fine. Look forward to listening.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:49 pm
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Well Doc Mods makes it more universal and less commercial and are talked about here.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:00 pm
by Nick

I have no strong feeling towards either. Whichever is simpler for you or you prefer I listen to.
Re: My contact detailsQuote Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Sent: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:23 am
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Which do you want, Doc Mods or Cubes.
My contact detailsQuote Nick
Sent: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:14 am
by Nick

Contact details removed

Look forward to hearing the speakers.
Top
Last edited by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Wed May 03, 2017 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15707
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#150 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Nick »

How on earth do you know what I'm playing with to make such a statement??
I think Richards post was aimed towards me not you in the first instance Ed.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
Post Reply