Saiga - Discuss

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pre65
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#76 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by pre65 »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:04 pm So someone tells you to design a speaker you know will be musically shite but you still do it, very professional, but I wouldn't have thought it not very personally satisfying. Unless the payment is the only important thing.
If that is how you wish to view things then that is your prerogative.

We should not get annoyed when others extol opinions contrary to our own. Do you agree Richard ?
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#77 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

No, but you would not understand why, it is personal self respect for your principles and beliefs, but you wouldn't know anything about that.

FFS it is only words, I give you words against the concept and the principles involved, note not the man.
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#78 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by pre65 »

We should not get annoyed when others extol opinions contrary to our own. Do you agree Richard ?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:31 pm No, but you would not understand why, it is personal self respect for your principles and beliefs, but you wouldn't know anything about that.

FFS it is only words, I give you words against the concept and the principles involved, note not the man.
No, you are right, I don't understand at all.

I respect my principles and beliefs but I allow others to think and act differently, that is their right. I may offer an opinion now and then, but never to the point of suggesting others are wrong, and I am right.
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#79 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Scottmoose »

Regarding the commercial factors you are claiming Richard, I point you toward the remarks that I have made several times: these speakers were designed by me as a favour to the studio in question. I received no payment from them of any kind, other than the words 'please', and 'thank you', which in their case were payment in plenty. I completely understand they are not to your taste (nor are they particularly to mine; a point I have also made several times), but it was made clear from the outset they were designed for a specific purpose, and while your opinion is interesting to me in an abstract sense, it has no relevance to these particular loudspeakers.

If I understand you correctly, you are objecting to them because they do not happen to adhere to your preferences, and you would prefer them to be something different. However, the people who wanted them did not want something different. They wanted what they received, and are very happy with them. That is what they care about, and what I care about: giving clients what they want.
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#80 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Apologies then, I misread that.

You need to look at my first post, it could have been left at that, and none of this was aimed personally. You need to see who and what has escalated it. If you have never seen it before it is a small gang of people who follow me around the internet turning every thread I post on into conflict.

By posting the design and principles of those speakers you are advertising them as a concept, and other may be tempted to follow. For me that is an anathema and I reacted because of that.

The most important point made in this thread is that studios were *musically* doing a better job 60 years ago than they do now, and the evidence is there for all to hear. Why because they had nothing but simplicity, but quality to do the job. Every step that has followed that up to the present day has complicated this. I worked with studios in the 70's so I know the motivation, they sold themselves on the size of their mixing desks, how many tracks and how many boxes sat in their racks, and the music suffered. Then came digital and the music suffered. Then came computers and the music suffered. To the point I am not sure we have music anymore. I am sick of it and I am sick of the bullshit that follows it around, so you gave me an opportunity to express my frustration - that is all.
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#81 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by DSJR »

Blame the inexperienced untrained numpties behind the gear, not the gear itself.
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#82 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

You are wrong it is the gear that is the problem.
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#83 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Flatpopely »

Listen to Porcuoine Tree 'The Incident' to hear what a modern recording can do.
Steve Wilson is passionate about music and recording quality and it shows.
You may not like the genre but the recording quality shines through.
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#84 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Cressy Snr »

Here's a case,
After having heard Rag' n Bone Man sing "Human" with Gregory Porter on Jools Holland's Annual Hootenanny on new year's eve and been very impressed. I waited for the album to come out and yesterday started to stream it. My wife and I only got half way throughthe first song, before we switched the damned thing off.
Dissapointing; compressed to hell, zero dynamics, with an obvious aural exciter device on his voice, which surgically removed all the character. Gawd knows what the backing instrumentation was, but it was a mess.
It was a major disappointment after the excellence of his performance with Gregory Porter and Jools' Rythm & Blues Orchestra.
I mean...fine..If that's how they wanted it, it's a winner, a smash but it was musically a total desert compared to hearing the live performance, even with FreeView TV sound through the system.

A similar thing happened a few years ago, with a Paloma Faith album. Saw her on Later with Jools and was bowled over. Bought the CD and was dissapointed with the compression, exciter box treated voice and a general lack of dynamics. There was loud and a bit louder, that was it.

What they are using to monitor these things in the control room God only knows. Maybe it's production decisions and is out of the artist's hands, or inadequate studio monitoring, but it ain't good.

OTOH there is some stunningly good sounding stuff coming out in the world of Jazz. The Greg Foat Group, Matthew Halsall and his cinematic jazz projects all sound wonderful, so there is obviously some decent studio gear and plenty of good producers/engineers still knockng about.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#85 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Thermionic Idler »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:54 pm The most important point made in this thread is that studios were *musically* doing a better job 60 years ago than they do now, and the evidence is there for all to hear. Why because they had nothing but simplicity, but quality to do the job. Every step that has followed that up to the present day has complicated this. I worked with studios in the 70's so I know the motivation, they sold themselves on the size of their mixing desks, how many tracks and how many boxes sat in their racks, and the music suffered. Then came digital and the music suffered. Then came computers and the music suffered. To the point I am not sure we have music anymore. I am sick of it and I am sick of the bullshit that follows it around, so you gave me an opportunity to express my frustration - that is all.
Some of the most prized LP's in my collection are a small number of Speakers Corner reissues of the Mercury Living Presence recordings from the 50's and 60's. If I recall correctly, they used three omnidirectional microphones which went straight to three-track tape - nothing in between save presumably a level control. No EQ allowed - they had to do it properly.

The ones from Watford Town Hall (e.g. Respighi - The Birds & Brazilian Impressions / Dorati / LSO, Stravinsky Firebird / Dorati / LSO) have the most extraordinary acoustic - absolutely stunning sound.

DG is a classic example of where things went backwards hugely - a lot of the 60's stuff sounded great, but what on earth were they using to balance the sound in the 1970's? So much of it sounds like it was recorded in an anechoic chamber through an old sock.
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#86 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Cressy Snr »

Yes, the Watford Town Hall one from 1957, we heard at my place certainly was fabulous. :)
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#87 Re: Saiga - Discuss

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but what on earth were they using to balance the sound in the 1970's? So much of it sounds like it was recorded in an anechoic chamber through an old sock.
Don't forget the amount of coke that was involved during the late 70's onwards.

And also don’t forget the introduction of crap op-amps to kit and the removal of matching transformers from the front of a lot of stuff.

It can be both the people AND the equipment.
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#88 Re: Saiga - Discuss

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Our problem has always been technology and marketing taking over from reality and music. Steady progression up to about 1960 steady downhill since. Multitracking and overdubbing was the first source of problems because the op amps available for the mixing desks were not up to it, and can you imagine a multitrack desk with valves :roll: . When we got one that was nearly up to it in the Mullard TDA1034 (became Signetics NE5534), with the likes of Neve forward ordering for a year ahead they used so many they were in very short supply, but by the time musically good op-amps appeared we had gone digital, another downhill step.

Yes there are exceptions that prove the rule, but seriously hard to find amoungst modern recordings. I presume they have been produced simply to get the quality.

Two systems used in the late 50's. The USA one was first from Capital 3 mics strung above referred to as left right and middle (in fill). The UK one from Decca (ffss) two mics in a fig8. Both produced these exceptional recordings that are now gold dust.
Last edited by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#89 Re: Saiga - Discuss

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Nick wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:12 am
but what on earth were they using to balance the sound in the 1970's? So much of it sounds like it was recorded in an anechoic chamber through an old sock.
Don't forget the amount of coke that was involved during the late 70's onwards.

And also don’t forget the introduction of crap op-amps to kit and the removal of matching transformers from the front of a lot of stuff.

It can be both the people AND the equipment.
Is cocaine detrimental to the recording process ? In terms of the creative process is both and asset and a hindrance , depending upon amount taken and how long the protagonists had been taking it. Oasis 3rd album is shite largely because of Cocaine , NWA Straight outa Compton , seminal album assisted by drug and alcohol use . There are numerous 70's rock stars this paradigm can be applied to . The absence of Cocaine use is of course why all Genesis albums are awesome*

* Silent sun and calling all stations are NOT genesis albums.

Also , isn't choosing your music by its recording quality the wrong way round .
Last edited by Daniel Quinn on Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#90 Re: Saiga - Discuss

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Decca used a 'Tree' which gave horrendous phase distortion on some stereo recordings, almost as bad as analogue tape overload. I have an old friend who was a mastering engineer at Decca for eleven years until they packed up twenty or so years ago as a full independent and became fully absorbed into Polygram (or whatever it became). The raw recordings could sound very good, but it was the *people* messing around afterwards with the increasingly advanced add-ons that fuck it up. Great book just out by Adrian Kerridge (rip), who was an engineer from the early 50's, owned a good London studio or two and worked with Joe meek, the father of compression, hard limiting and copious eq..... Back in the 50's, engineers wore white coats and tried their damndest with very crude (apparently) recording gear. Advances made more possible, so far more to go wrong if misued.




Late P.S. The Adrian Kerridge book is becoming a revelation and I'm only half way through. I'm now at the discussion of the studio acoustics and how the early 70's studios were becoming unnaturally dead and other studio/control rooms terrible for acoustics. Well worth a read I think - and there's also mention of too many cooks quite often in the preparation of a recording for consumption on vinyl, CD and so on, the final cutting/mastering engineers having free reign to try to alter the master delivered to them for cutting/transferring or whatever..
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