Streaming services

I think we all know by now what this section is for.
Neal
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#16

Post by Neal »

Yeah, I'd agree with that, although, the sound quality can be improved by tweaking the settings for SoX, it's much better with a bit of up sampling applied and selecting a different slope filter. The lack of an active o/p stage on the top hat DAC's does seem to make then quite sensitive to interconnect choice.
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Nick
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#17

Post by Nick »

Worth remembering BTW, that if the IQ DAC can't produce 2v RMS output (understandable from a 5v Supply), I found mine clips on a 100% 1kHz signal above 96 on the alsmixer PCM setting when set for 2v output.
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#18

Post by Neal »

You mean like this:

Image

It also clips at 1v output with anything above a setting of 98...
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#19

Post by Nick »

Neal wrote:You mean like this:

Image

It also clips at 1v output with anything above a setting of 98...
Yes, exactly like that :-). I assumed it was supply rail restricted. Maybe internally?
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#20

Post by Neal »

I think you may be right Nick, from the PCM5122 data sheet:


Voltage Reference and Ouptut Levels

The PCM512x has an internal, fixed band-gap reference voltage, with default operation in VREF mode. No external decoupling capacitor is required for this mode. VREF mode provides 2.1Vrms full-scale output at both AVDD levels.
The PCM512x can be operated with a common-mode voltage output (VCOM mode) at the VCOM pin by setting Page 1, Register 1, D(0) to 1. In this mode, an external decupling capacitor is required.

When using this DAC in VREF mode, the output-signal voltage is independent of the power-supply voltage: The D/A conversion gain in VREF mode yields a 2.1Vrms output voltage with a digital full-scale input. However, in VREF mode, an output waveform may clip due to the limitations that may be present in the analog power supply voltage. On the other hand, the full-scale output voltage in VCOM mode is proportional to the analog power supply AVDD. Example, (2.1 × AVDD / 3.3) Vrms.


Switching to VCOM mode just requires a 10uF cap fitting between pin10 and AGND
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Greg
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#21

Post by Greg »

Hmm, well it does surprise me that more here are not experimenting or trialling streaming services because in my experience, they are a top of the range quality music source.

I have now got my RPi working properly and no longer suffer from drop out. I have done nothing to it other than to leave the RPi permenantly powered up, but turned off/on at control on my iPad.

Having sampled several services, I am now inclined to remain with Qobuz for it's extensive classical library much of which is high resolution playback and thereafter, Tidal for it's comprehensive general and popular music library.

Chris, I hope you are still enjoying Qobuz and I have noted your comments on home plugs etc. I acknowledge the points you raise but in practice cannot find any reason to critisize the quality of sound I am getting. It really is up there with best vinyl/CD reproduction.

Music streaming this way is so versatile, just like visiting and booking out a tome from your local library, but obviously with the ease of doing it immediately through your PC or tablet. It opens up a world of opportunity to rediscover music you have forgotten about or to access the very best recordings of pieces you currently enjoy. By way of example, tonight I went down a youthful memory lane, listening to the The Cufflinks and then Miki and Griff. I have none of their material on vinyl or otherwise. I finalised the evening with Bach's six Cello Suites in fabulous quality from Qobuz. Even the Miki and Griff and the Cufflinks were excellent reproductions and far better than anything I could produce from vinyl even if I had it which I don't.

This whole thing really is a no brainer for me. I remain gobsmacked that others are so slow on the uptake.
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#22

Post by Paul Barker »

Well I really thank everybody for their input here, beginning with Greg, but more pleased to read the pearls of wisdom from the boffins of solid state computer communications and digital realms, that remain a complete mystery to me. I have invested varying amounts of money in failures, such problems as Spdif not being turned into music by any of my dacs inspight of changing use to Spdif converters, though not spending fortunes. The resultant failure has cause my regression into vinyl, which I found a positive outcome in itself.

It would be nice to buy a final solution, but I can't justify the expense of the excellent Dac Nick brought to the market, though it seems to me to be second to none.

I am not so keen on subscribing to a service, because unlike most of you my requirement to listen to a huge variety of music doesn't exist. I found the free version of spotify inadequate. Doing the sums if I subscribed to it or the one Greg mentions, compared to my historical spending on music I would be a lot out of pocket.

One of my ways of obtaining music today is to buy a used cd , put it onto iTunes and I pay Apple a low cost anual subscription for them to then replace it with their version of it. This version seems to me to be of merchantable quality. At the other end, vinyl is vinyl, and I shall never be dissatisfied with it, along with pops jumps crackles and occasional mis tracking, complemented by destruction of cartridge tips and hence expensive maintenance.

I suppose if I sold all my vinyl and my playing equipment I could buy the whole lot on iTunes and a load of this guff you guys are talking about way above my head, finalised into Nick's Dac (who I have learned confidence in over the years I have known him) and have cheap long term solution.

But hay ho, like all technology, if I hold back another year, while the folk like yourselves in these realms way beyond my understanding buzz around like bees you will have come up with something half the price twice the capability, maybe an all in one plug and play solution.

So I'll stand back a little longer Greg, and I may never pay that kind of subscription for music on a regular basis, as it would be cheaper for me to carry on as I do with iTunes.
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#23

Post by pre65 »

I'm also inclined to "wait and see" regarding digital excellence.

My Squeezebox and CD replay system will keep me going for a while longer, and my vinyl is there should I feel the need for a different approach.

I did smile when Greg expressed surprise about people using streaming services. :lol: :lol:
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Nick
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#24

Post by Nick »

Neal wrote:I think you may be right Nick, from the PCM5122 data sheet:


Voltage Reference and Ouptut Levels

The PCM512x has an internal, fixed band-gap reference voltage, with default operation in VREF mode. No external decoupling capacitor is required for this mode. VREF mode provides 2.1Vrms full-scale output at both AVDD levels.
The PCM512x can be operated with a common-mode voltage output (VCOM mode) at the VCOM pin by setting Page 1, Register 1, D(0) to 1. In this mode, an external decupling capacitor is required.

When using this DAC in VREF mode, the output-signal voltage is independent of the power-supply voltage: The D/A conversion gain in VREF mode yields a 2.1Vrms output voltage with a digital full-scale input. However, in VREF mode, an output waveform may clip due to the limitations that may be present in the analog power supply voltage. On the other hand, the full-scale output voltage in VCOM mode is proportional to the analog power supply AVDD. Example, (2.1 � AVDD / 3.3) Vrms.


Switching to VCOM mode just requires a 10uF cap fitting between pin10 and AGND
Interesting. The inference there is that the VREF mode is going to be less influence by the supply rail, but sounds like the PSRR of the analogue output is still a issue. Its convenient having the analogue output built in, but it does restrict your choices. It also seems to say there is more to the analogue output than the "direct from the DAC" that it seems to suggest and people are assuming.
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#25

Post by Neal »

Yup, good analysis Nick. I continue to find the TDA DAC gives better long term results than the PCM5122...

Regarding streaming, I'll wait and see as well. We use spotify to ID some new music and also the likes of radio paradise but the limitation with all of the pay to listen services is they do not offer all music from all artists that we want to listen to...so we are never going to sign up to 3 different services just to do that and we certainly don't want to listen to established artists in this way...the cost doesn't justify it in our opinion.

My daughter ID's new music through word of mouth and social media and youtube some of this can be accessed on-line or it has to be purchased...in essence we need/like the flexibility....
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#26

Post by Neal »

Apple are due to release their Music service in the USA in July and it should be available to us sometime this autumn...will be interesting to find out the costs and coverage...
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#27

Post by shane »

Neal wrote:Apple are due to release their Music service in the USA in July and it should be available to us sometime this autumn...will be interesting to find out the costs and coverage...
Re the above:

http://www.techeye.net/news/apple-to-ro ... sic-stance
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#28

Post by Neal »

Which just re-enforces my point about flexibility. Its not just apply though.... http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/5/873753 ... urn-of-drm
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#29

Post by Greg »

OK, I understand people being cautious and wanting to wait and see. I suppose streamed music is all about what you want and what is available. Certainly some artists have refused to have their music streamed, but they are in the minority. Following sampling, I am inclined to go with Qobuz for classical and Tidal for popular music. Total cost being around £25 a month and no need to buy in hard copy albums.

As said before, streamed music through my RPi set up sounds far better than any CDP I have previously owned. For that reason alone I am moving on.

As far as the wait and see brigade, it all depends on what your need is. I listen to a lot of classical music and if I hunt, for example, Grieg's Peer Gynt suites on Qobus, I get well over 50 recorded options to listen to. That is what I like with classical. The option to listen to a specific recording that sounds best to me.

No disrespect, but I seriously am inclined to think some of you guys are living in the past or at least dragging your heals on this. Many of you have done the hard work, setting up your system for computer fed music. One last step is getting into streaming. Personally I can't fault it as it has been a revelation to my own listening experience.
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#30

Post by Ray P »

Greg wrote:Many of you have done the hard work, setting up your system for computer fed music. One last step is getting into streaming.
Many of us have also built up large music collections over many years; I already have more music on my NAS than I can possibly listen to and I'm still adding to it with downloads, most recently DSD - try streaming DSD256 music files from Qubos or Tidal - and new music I discover.

So it isn't simply a case of,
Greg wrote:some of you guys are living in the past or at least dragging your heals on this.
but, at least in my case, about personal choices about what and how I want to listen to music and how I spend my money to achieve that. And just to dispel any lingering thoughts you might have about which century I'm living in, I've been listening to Internet radio and streaming movies and TV for years.

Ray
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