EDINGDALE speaker build

Dedicated to those large boxes at one end of the room
zman
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#301

Post by zman »

What can I say, the customer is a lucky gent! :)

Top job from Mr. Topps again, and excellent choice of veneer.

-Zia
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Toppsy
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#302

Post by Toppsy »

Hi Zia,
yes, they turned out well but were quite a challenge and not easy to do and get the top and sides bookmatched with a continuous grain. See the attached photos taken during the covering stage. Matts existing Living Voice speakers are finished in Zebrano and was a last resort choice for Matt as he really wanted some exotic burr veneers. These included amonst others:

Japanese Tamo Ash - This looks stunning but is not cheap by any means. To cover these speakers you are looking at paying over £200 or there abouts just for the veneer. However, my supplier would only sell this as a full bundle at a trade cost of £750+VAT! Aparently Rolls Royce are there main client for this and they only buy full bundles which all goes into a single RR car!

Radial cut Birch burr - Again a stunning looking veneer that I could buy in single panels. However the cost was £180 just for sufficient veneer to cover the speakers. This is used for lining the inside door panels of top-of-the-range Citroen cars. Very tasty veneer.

Ash Burr Though a little cheaper than the above two again too extensive in leaf widths we required and again I would have to buy a full bundle, in this case 24 leaves!

For anyone who likes this veneer the good news is I have sufficient stock left to cover 3 more pairs of speakers.


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zman
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#303

Post by zman »

Colin,

That's interesting info on veneer - wouldn't have guessed that there's veneer out there which can cost more than many a good speaker! :shock:

From the picture I see that the grain matching is meticulously done. Tricky it must have been with so many lines going here and there. BTW, how thick are these veneer sheets?

- Zia
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Toppsy
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#304

Post by Toppsy »

Zia,
All veneer is 0.6mm thick. However the lcut leaves vary greatly in width and length depending on the cut and species of wood and how large the trees grow. To be able to book-match ie make both speakers mirror images of themselves you need to buy your veneer as consecutive cut leaves from the same bundle. Most smaller sellers of veneer and especially ebay sellers are offloading left over odd sheets and though they may say the they have 'X' number of leaves for sale there is no guarantee they are from the same cut bundle.
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#305

Post by planet10 »

The veneers Chris get usually come in 4x8 or 4x10 sheets The exotic stuff can get VERY pricy.

dave
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#306

Post by shane »

Colin, I know it's been said before, but I take my hat off to you. Having spent hours trying to make a pre-amp box that ended up looking like the dog brought it in from the garden, I can only look on with awe. Amazing...
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hifimaster
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#307

Post by hifimaster »

Just had the pleasure of meeting Colin and listening to his glorious speakers. Colin has kindly loaned us his speakers for a couple of days. So far, these speakers are fantastic. The mid range is superb in quality and the bass is very controlled. I can see now why people who have bought Colin's speakers are raving about them. I just love the look of the Zebrano and the sound, well you need to hear them to appreciate just how good they are. They are fantastic with the vinyl and the CD, even though I don't listen to CD. We are currently watching Tron Legacy and again the sound coming from these things is amazing. They really are bloody good speakers, well done Colin on your design.

Natalie and Dom
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#308

Post by Mike H »

Nice one! :thumbleft:
 
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#309 Hands off....they're mine!!! ;)

Post by mmcnult1 »

Hi all, I'm new to the site but I thought it was about time I added my bit regarding these as i'm Matt, the lucky recipient of the speakers! I think everybody's getting the gist that these are fabulous speakers so I won't wax lyrical about them until they've had the proper run-in in my system, but suffice it to say, yes they are!
By way of introduction I'd like to tell you the story of myself first and how I met Colin because this is one part in a (hopefully) longer story on the path to audio heaven for me. And maybe I'll meet some of you at Owston when I collect the speakers so this way you won't be wondering who the short fat guy is thats no-ones ever met before!
Firstly, me (it's always me, me, me isn't it!!).. I've been interested in Hifi from an early age. (I've just turned 40) and I've got myself to a point where I have a good system and an (un)healthy love of vinyl and Turntables. I'm an Engineer and i'm sufficiently hands on enough to specialise in turntable set-ups in my spare time, as Colin will attest to no doubt (an impromtpu requirement during my visit to audition the speakers). In fact, I have designed a turntable for my HNC in Electrical/Electronic and Mechanical HNCs which got Swindon College Engineering dept the first ever double distinction for one of their students. I also worked for 7 years for Celestion loudspeakers on their high End speakers before they went Chinese and lost the plot! My system has developed over many years and I'm not rich enough to buy much new Hifi so most of it is secondhand purchases. However, it's quite some system now as i'm sure you'll agree. Turntables (Yes, two, apart from the project!) Original Townshend Rock Reference with Excalibur Arm and Kiseki Purpleheart Sapphire Cartridge and Avid Acutus with SME V and Blue Angel Audio Mantis Cartridge, Resolution Audio Opus 21 CD player, Tom Evans The Groove phono stage, Michell Argo HR pre-amp, Michell Alecto Monoblock Power amps, Living Voice Avatar IBX R2 speakers. And what has all this to do with ANYTHING I hear you ask?
Well, I've been on the search for a long time for some replacement amplifiers. I've wanted some valves but whenever i've tried them against the Alecto's, whilst the valves had that lovely sound they always do, they didn't have the slam and attack that I require for the wide and varied taste I have in music (I have 4900 records now!). That includes Tom Evans latest valve amps. Kondo's did...but cmon...I haven't won the lottery!! However, at the Hifi Wigwam show I stumbled into a room that had the sort of sound from a system that I was looking for and they were using VALVES....Soooo, this is where I met Nick and Colin, and where the story started - after a chat with both Nick and Colin I took some details to arrange somehow to have a listen with some of my own equipment to see if i'd finally found what I was looking for..and some weeks later I was on my way to Colin's, with my speakers, amps and phono stage all in the car, to audition some of Nicks amps, which Colin had kindly agreed to (as he uses Nicks amps).The plan was to use Colin's turntable as he has a nice one too (Notts Analogue Spacedeck/Hadcock arm/Ortofon Rondo bronze cartridge).
It was an interesting weekend and firstly I must thank Colin and Mrs Topps for letting a complete stranger stay overnight in their house and for being great hosts whilst the auditions and substitutions took place over the weekend. Nick also joined us for a third opinion and also because it was his amps that I really wanted to hear and would be potentially buying. He also brought some phono stages he'd designed, one of which was modified with some choice components, as he was interested to hear them against The Groove. At this point I didn't expect to be buying the speakers as well, as I had some great speakers already, right? I will now include the email exchange between myself, Colin and Nick, which are the results of that weekend. I think it's easier to do that way, albeit a bit long winded, but you will see the results, nonetheless!! It's unedited, warts n all and Colins/Nicks comments and responses are there as well. I want to include everything so you will see what great (and knowledgable) guys both Nick and Colin are.

Colin, Nick,
I'd like to thank you both for the weekend, especially yourself Colin for putting me up and spending so much time chasing my foibles and even on sunday still allowing me to swap things about! It was a really enjoyable couple of days and very instructive on my system as well. I hope you two guys got something from it too (I think you did!). I thought I'd put my thoughts down as I saw them from the results and see if you concur with what my thoughts were from the weekend..let me know what your thoughts are and then i'll try to pull them together in a mini (Mini - Ha!! Matt's addition) review on the forums - I might actually put it on other forums than yours if thats ok with you - to spread the word about both of your bits of gear a bit - i'm pretty sure everyone on 'your' site is well aware of your abilities...I'll still post it up on Audio talk....of course, maybe as a link, or maybe in full - let me know what you think - i'll also make it clear that until the wigwam show i had not met either of you!

(Colins Response) Yes a great weekend. For me I'm beginning to have faith in my speakers that they can cut the mustard with some very reputable commercial speakers.


Ok, easy conclusions first!
1) I think I have to admit (and we all heard it!) that it's a no-brainer about the speakers!!! The difference in tonal balance between the LV's and Colins was massive. It may not be such an issue where small scale music or music where most of the energy is contained in the midband is concerned, but I think Nick coined it well - they do a good 'impression' of making you feel like they have bass. Colins HAVE real bass, but more importantly are consistent across the bandwidth and are more suited to the rock stuff that I listen too. The LV's will be up for sale as soon as i've paid Colin so he can get on with building them for me! More on this in a bit!

(Colins response) For me to comment further I feel would be blowing my own trumpet. I think you and NIck have said it all.


2) The turntable needed setting up!! When i'm up next Colin i might take a more advanced look at it for you and try to dial it in - I reckon it's got more to give!

A big thank you Matt for sorting my vinyl front end. Vinyl hasn't sounded so good for a long while in that I haven't played a CD since you went home.


3) I believe the phono stages were the hardest ones to pick between out of everything we played with.. There were definitely small tonal differences I think, but not necessarily qualitative ones - personal taste I think is what seperates these....if I was starting again I think it's fair to say I would definitely go for Nicks Standard wired & capped one...I think we all agreed we were nit-picking over the differences here but when pushed harder Nicks just seem to hold things together that bit better and not get harsh compared to The Groove. And for that reason and the adjustable loading I'd put it ahead. These comments apply for me regarding the non-fettled version and we were definately nit-picking here - if I could find some way (some further discussion i'm sure will take place on this!) to adjust my loading on The Groove, then it could be more equal - as it stands, i'm more than happy at the moment to live with my Groove and try to sort the loading thing out (Sorry Nick, although it'll be you I talk to about the loading stuff!!)....Strangely, for me, the wired and capped one seemed to do some things well but lost the overall top to bottom coherence across the whole bandwidth. Again this is a personal taste thing but i've found a few times especially with the arm-rewiring, that I prefer copper over silver as it's more consistent across the whole bandwidth, but this will more likely be a decision made by the system/room interaction itself and what the overall system balance is! One final thing - I think Colin felt that both Nicks Phono and The Groove bettered the 'Swampy' as I think it was called (or was that the pre?) by a small margin - hard for me to make a call on this one as we were playing with distorted sounds when I was listening to Colins initially so unfair for me to judge. (Matts addition)This was when we needed to play with the turntable setup)

(Colins Response) Agreed both Nick's and your Groove phono stages were better than mine. Which by-the-way was designed by Andrew Lehane, our mate up in Scotland. The 'Swampy' is the mains filter unit not the phono stage, this has no name as such. The differences between Nick's Standard version and the Groove was subtle and I would happliy replace my phono with either if I could afford them. I agree with your observations regards the upgraded version Nick brought to the party. But Nick has a valid point regards component burn-in time and the need for the Groove to warm up before comming on song. Matts addition (VERY valid point)

(Matts addition for clarity) Nicks phono stages were LITERALLY just built and so NO run-in had been done on them (he even had to use valves from one, for the other as two sets weren't available). The results on these could have been different had all the phonostages undergone proper warm-up and run-in periods.

4) I've had enough of that Ozric Tentacles track for a while!

(Colins response) You and me both but it served it's purpose. One reason why I do hate to sit in on phono/DAC shootout events!!


5) Going on to the Sunday morning (for Nick's benefit) as he was not present on sunday. We connected up my Argo HR first to The Groove, in place of Colins Pre, with the 300b's. I actually felt that this held it's own surprisingly well against Colins pre-amp and perhaps bettered it in a few key areas for me..These were space and air around the instruments, and imaging depth, as well as overall coherence - But again this was marginal and down to personal taste levels again - of course, my own familiarity with it might make me biased here so what did you think Colin?

(Colins response)I thought there was nothing wanting from your pre Matt. Certainly a keeper.

(Matt) The balance was certainly different, although that pain in the arse double mono volume control has to go - It creates a channel imbalance all the time!! Arrrrgh!!! I think this Pre could be made seriously better with power supply improvements and a good stepped attenuator - what do you think guys?...I'm happy again to live with this one, if we can tweak it over time....

(Colins response) Yes the volume pot was a bit of a problem and you did suffer from too much gain with the 300b's and Edingdales. A change here I would recommend to say a stereo stepped ladder? Regards gain I know Nick has some thoughts how to tweek this for you. Hard for me to say if a change in power supply will reap in benefits but if my experience with fully regulated supplies is anything to go by then this should reap benefits.


6) Now the biggie (for me at least!).....We then added my Alecto's to the mix and removed the 300b's....I think Colin and I both agreed this was a major downgrade in quality (thank god - as thats what the whole reason I was originally coming up for!!). The sound with the Alecto's was all there but a smaller picture and flatter sounding, with a lot less projection of the soundstage out from the speakers. The stage width and depth as well as detail was considerably better with the 300b's as we'd expect. The treble was cleaner and the mid range was, well, 300b! The bass I thought was nearer together between the two in terms of solidity and extension...However, given that this is 'supposed' to be a weakness with 300b's and a strength of solid state, thats hardly surprising to me, and I think it's fair to say Nicks 300b's do not suffer in the bass regions at all - a major issue i've found with valves i've tried in the past! It's not Krell bass on either amps, but it's not Krell harsh top end either! I think it's fair to say that the 300b amps are exceptional amps, not only for 300b's, but as amplifiers in their own right. I've heard the Alecto's against some excellently regarded competition both valves and solid state and not been tempted to part with money as all I heard were differences, not improvements. Colin did comment that the Alecto amps, being high powered, would only be ticking over and therefore not necessairly working favourably with the sensitivity of the speakers, but I just think he was being nice to me! :) Kevin at Living Voice, funnily enough, didn't think the LV's would work with the Alecto's either, but they did compared to everything else we listened to, so hey ho!
In isolation and in the absence of the required funds at present, i'm happy to live with the Alectos's for a while whilst I save up.
I'm also pleased with myself in a way on a few counts..firstly that my suspicions about the power amps being the weakest link in my system was correct, as i still think that even with the LV's, the Alecto's are the weakest link, and secondly, that when I popped my head around the door at the show I immediately picked up on the things that I liked about the sound and knew they could be what I was looking for! I think the combo of the 300b amps and the speakers works especially well together and has a certain magic that works. It just sounds right. (I'm not gonna use the word synergy!)

Colins response) For me the biggest thing was the lack of involvement (of the Alecto's) that the 300b generate to the mix. The Alecto's seemed to be a little sterile and less engaging. Perhaps if we'd left the amps on for longer to fully warm up the difference might have been less profound. But the 300b's with the Edingdales do seem to have a cerstin majic going on between the two.


So, at the end of this, these are my plans, notwithstanding any financial disasters or stuff that i absolutely have to do at the new house!
1) Get the speakers from Colin - I've left a driver/component deposit and i'm demo-ing a Rock turntable for someone on Saturday and if that comes off i'll only be a few quid short of full funds so I will probably tell you to get on building them Colin...i'll let you know on Saturday/Sunday probably!! We'll need to think about them samples sharpish if that happens!!!
2) Once I get the speakers from Colin, I'll flog the LV's and hopefully get enough money to start talking to you Nick about the 300b's, at which point I'll also sell the Alecto's.
3) Then hopefully we can talk about the loading changes on the Groove and PSU's as well as PSU on the Argo HR and stepped attenuator - I wouldn't mind if we put the Argo HR (with new PSU) in a single box or another two box affair although thats more for aesthetics of course (ish!) - I really do like the box and switches you've got on your Phono stage Nick - are the chassis and front expensive?

And that concluded the emails....and what youve all seen are the results so far, in that I will be collecting my speakers soon! I wanted to explain the whole scenario because there are two parts to this story, and two heroes! The speakers being the first part, and the 300b amps being the second (and originally the only!) part. So, I'm sorry it's been long winded but watch this space for the second part of the story if haven't sent you all to sleep and you actually got to this point! I'd like to thank Colin of course for making these speakers and I will post a (smaller, I promise!) review of them when I've spent some time with them - In the mean time, if anyone wants to hear them in a top flight system, then let me know - I'm sure we can arrange something if Colin, or his demo speakers aren't available. Colin, i'm sure, will be keen to hear them in my system too, at some point! And just to re-iterate..you owe it to yourself to hear Colins speakers with Nicks amps....Im pretty sure it will force you to re-assess your system!! Thank you both Colin and Nick and i hope tosee some of you a least at the Owston show..
Regards,
Matt
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#310

Post by Andrew »

Hi Colin,

I think we can improve your phono considerably by getting the second valve out of grid leak bias, there's no need for it with your pre. We can do this by simply putting a 75R resistor in the cathode. I doubt its quite up to the standard of Nick's, especially after all the work he has put into his, but I know from my measurements of that second stage that there's is room to improve things. I'll bring some stuff down when I come.

cheers,

Andrew
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mmcnult1
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#311 Re: Colin's Phono stage

Post by mmcnult1 »

Great news - another Groove beater!!!
Matt :)
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Toppsy
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#312

Post by Toppsy »

These will be at Owston tomorrow for collection by there new owner. The first pair I have built with full face grilles. A bit of bugger to make as I was concerned they would effect the sound. I therefore made them from 6mm Birch ply and they have proved to be quite transparent soundwise. They are attached to the front front baffle via small neo magnets burried under the veneer, so when they are detached there are no visible fixings. The cabinets themselves are finished in Oak.

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shane
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#313

Post by shane »

Colin, will you please stop doing this? I'm filled with the urge to do desparate things to my bank account. :D
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hifimaster
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#314

Post by hifimaster »

I know what you mean Shane, this is exactly what Colin did to us and now we are getting a set in the Zebrano and I cant wait :D

I'm going to the meet tomorrow with Dom and a friend of ours who has loaned us is Kef 105/3s whilst we are waiting for Edingdales and he is looking forward to having a listen to these speakers.

It should be very interesting tomorrow and a good day.

Natalie :wink:
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Toppsy
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#315

Post by Toppsy »

Ah! But Natalie,

You were just seduced by my whit, charm and good looks :lol: :lol: :wink:

I Know, I know............Only in my dreams. :(

The speakers just did what they do best.
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