Thorens TD150 and the Road to Vinyl Bliss

[colin.hepburn]

Hi mike
Thanks ill check it out
But I got more protractors than I can shake an arm at one I got with the rega from the chap @audio Origami which a known is a good plus the ones that come with the test record how and if anyone's interested the audio Origami chap has another arm review in the July HiFi World mag he won an award for the last one he made

[colin.hepburn]

OK have tried again
This time using the HFN test record
SIDE TWQ
Running side two Bands 1 to Band 8 no problems even Band 2 resonance test went smoothly hearing/seeing the wobble and warble of the cart all went well doesn't seem to be any problems for side two then
SIDE ONE
From Band 1 to Band 6 seemed Fine Band 7 Bias setting anti-skate 300Hz tone L+R 14db hint of buzzing same for |Bands 8,16db band 9 18db changing anti-skate settings made no difference irrespective of where I set the regas anti-skate @ 0-1-2 for each test SAME HINT OF BUZZING
HO what do I try now?
Also not sure about the theory behind the used records causing the sibilants as the vocals from the chap on the test record had some sibilants on it new sealed copy used twice by me on this turntable

[colin.hepburn]

OK have tried again
This time using the HFN test record
SIDE TWQ
Running side two Bands 1 to Band 8 no problems even Band 2 resonance test went smoothly hearing/seeing the wobble and warble of the cart all went well doesn't seem to be any problems for side two then
SIDE ONE
From Band 1 to Band 6 seemed Fine Band 7 Bias setting anti-skate 300Hz tone L+R 14db hint of buzzing same for |Bands 8,16db band 9 18db changing anti-skate settings made no difference irrespective of where I set the regas anti-skate @ 0-1-2 for each test SAME HINT OF BUZZING
HO what do I try now?
Also not sure about the theory behind the used records causing the sibilants as the vocals from the chap on the test record had some sibilants on it new sealed copy used twice by me on this turntable

Hi All
Well I'm now on the verge of giving up
After checking all settings I can't see a problem with any
So Looking at the rega 250 arm I would have though that the sibilants must be down to the crap deign of the regas anti-skate and or the plastic stub and Rear Weight setup
Why I think this
Due to lack of fine control of the anti-skate system
Loose Rear Weight Due to not being able to tighten it up properly
Together possibly setting up Resonances in the arm maybe
I also have mixed ideas on sibilants caused by unknown damage to the records but if played on unknown equipment then yes I agree
But all my vinyl has been from new and looked after well and only played on my older AR turntable setup and I can't remember having these sibilants problems with that setup at the time
Any other ideas on resolving this are welcome

[Cressy Snr]

Hi All
Well I'm now on the verge of giving up
After checking all settings I can't see a problem with any
So Looking at the rega 250 arm I would have though that the sibilants must be down to the crap deign of the regas anti-skate and or the plastic stub and Rear Weight setup. Any other ideas on resolving this are welcome

Jeez

I feel awful about this and wish I had not started this thread

First thing i would do is to increase the tracking weight to the maximum allowed by the maker. For the 1042 IIRC it is 2 grams. I might even go to 2.25g. Do you have a stylus balance to check the actual downforce you are using? I say this because the Rega method of half a turn = 1 gram is not the most accurate.

Another reason I would go up to at least 2 grams is that the recommended downforce to me seems to me, at any rate, be too low for the compliance of the stylus assembly. I know it has a fine line stylus but these things spread the force out over a wide area and ought to be able to tolerate a bit more weight. The sibilance distortion on the announcers voice tell you that the cartridge is obviously mistracking, the test tones confirm it.

Now call me a perfectionist but if a cartridge can't pass the high level tone test on a test record then sooner or later it will show itself to be wanting when playing a normal record.

IME there are very very few that will pull off this feat. I had a Shure V15 mkIV that did and the Stanton 680 DJ cart I'm using now does it at 2.5 grams.. not a hint of fizz at the 90uM test level.

Why is this? well my theory is that the gull wing mounting of the low compliance Stanton cart prevents too much energy being passed into the arm tube. The gull wing dissipates the energy as heat and sound before it can get into the arm turntable system.

Lots of energy in the arm tube equals resonance at some point. If it coincides with a vertical resonance in the stylus assembly, they'll add together, the tail starts wagging the dog and and the needle gets thrown up to the top of the groove, almost out. This is why sibilance distortion appears from the left and right speakers with a central vocalist. It is a vertical problem.

I've had it happen on Louis Armstrong vocals on a mono LP which has no vertical movement of the stylus, yet on strong sibilants, distortion appeared left and right, indicating that again the stylus was being thrown straight upwards by some sort of vertical resonance problem between my Akito and the K18 I was using at the time.

The Shure V15 uses the fact that it is high in compliance and therefore it also puts very little energy into the arm tube. It gives the arm an easy time, therefore the stylus stays put when the going gets tough.

The only way I can see of preventing your Goldring from misbehaving is to increase the tracking force until it passes the tests. Naturally there will be a hundred folk who will tell you that their Goldring tracks like a train at 1.75 grams but that does not help you any.

If you can't get any satisfaction then I would be inclined to get something like the Stanton 681EEE, which would be more suited to the low mass of the Rega arm.

I think Philip (Pre65) has a couple of the Pickering equivalents to the Stanton 681EEE cartridge. I don't want to speak for him but he might be willing to loan you one to try out.

[pre65]

I think Philip (Pre65) has a couple of the Pickering equivalents to the Stanton 681EEE cartridge. I don't want to speak for him but he might be willing to loan you one to try out.

I have just the one Pickering XV-15 with the D625 stylus and it came with a couple of spare stylii.

I use it in a Rega RB300 attached to my home built special belt drive turntable. The only spare cartridge I have is an old Goldring 1012.

[pre65]

Been listening to the belt drive + Pickering and Mos-fet SE amps for a couple of hours on the "study" system and it's good.

[cressy]

does that rega arm you have have vta adjustment? if it does, lower the arm pillar as far as you need to make the back of the cart come down. sounds to me as if the vta is too steep. the goldring is a pain in the arse to set the vta as there isnt a face on the bottom of the cart that is square to the top of the cart. most people will set it so the bit above the stylus is ssquare to the record, but it isnt square to the top, it goes up at the front. so if this 'face' is square to the record the vta will be too steep by a few degrees. iirc, the one i had was very fussy about this.

if its not vta adjustable, make a thin card spacer to put between the cart and headshell and nip it up rather than torquing it up when you refit it.

also have a look in the most recent hifi world, they had a load of decks on test and they measured the rega arms with an accelerometer and recorded 2 large spikes in its resonance. its these that cause the problem if the cart resonates sympathetically.

can also try a piece of thin rubber out of an innertube as a spacer. it damps the carts resonances into the arm, but can cause some issues with bass becoming muddied as the resonance vibrates the generator in the cart as it cant get out into the arm. i did this myself with the dl 103 on my jvc and denon dp2000/ helius arm. it worked better on the jvc than it did on the helius tbh, and the rega has more in common with the helius. might be worth a try though as a last resort

[colin.hepburn]

I think Philip (Pre65) has a couple of the Pickering equivalents to the Stanton 681EEE cartridge. I don't want to speak for him but he might be willing to loan you one to try out.

I have just the one Pickering XV-15 with the D625 stylus and it came with a couple of spare stylii.

I use it in a Rega RB300 attached to my home built special belt drive turntable. The only spare cartridge I have is an old Goldring 1012.

Hi lads
Ok I have email the chap @audio origami he mode the rega and has asked for some PICs of the arm in operation so will see what he things then try Steve suggestions
Philip the 1012 fits the body of the goldring if required would you be willing to lend it me as I think the 1012 has a different profile happy to pay postage both ways
Cheers
Colin

[Cressy Snr]

I have just the one Pickering XV-15 with the D625 stylus and it came with a couple of spare stylii.

I use it in a Rega RB300 attached to my home built special belt drive turntable. The only spare cartridge I have is an old Goldring 1012.

Hi Phil I knew you had two pickering something or others. Pity it's two styli rather than two carts.

What's the XV15 like in terms of "roadholding"?

Steve

[colin.hepburn]

does that rega arm you have have vta adjustment? if it does, lower the arm pillar as far as you need to make the back of the cart come down. sounds to me as if the vta is too steep. the goldring is a pain in the arse to set the vta as there isnt a face on the bottom of the cart that is square to the top of the cart. most people will set it so the bit above the stylus is ssquare to the record, but it isnt square to the top, it goes up at the front. so if this 'face' is square to the record the vta will be too steep by a few degrees. iirc, the one i had was very fussy about this.

if its not vta adjustable, make a thin card spacer to put between the cart and headshell and nip it up rather than torquing it up when you refit it.

also have a look in the most recent hifi world, they had a load of decks on test and they measured the rega arms with an accelerometer and recorded 2 large spikes in its resonance. its these that cause the problem if the cart resonates sympathetically.

can also try a piece of thin rubber out of an innertube as a spacer. it damps the carts resonances into the arm, but can cause some issues with bass becoming muddied as the resonance vibrates the generator in the cart as it cant get out into the arm. i did this myself with the dl 103 on my jvc and denon dp2000/ helius arm. it worked better on the jvc than it did on the helius tbh, and the rega has more in common with the helius. might be worth a try though as a last resort

Hi Cressy
The rega I have is not standard it has had all the modes you can see here but not the Rear Weight the arm tube has also been foam filled http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/AO_Rewires/AORewires.htm



this may help

[cressy]

from the looks of the pics the cart looks bang on to me. what does interest me is the armboard. i found on the lenco that the combination of ally armboard, ally arm didnt work with the slate. the rega is an alloy i believe? (correct me if im wrong, dont want to give incorrect info). resonances add, there youve got an alloy, into aluminium into steel (subchassis) could this be a bad combination of materials?

p'raps mike could interject, does your 160 exhibit these characteristics? its iirc essentially the same bar the oak armboard instead of ally (dunno what cart though) ive always used wood before and never really encountered the problem until i used metal and slate. but as we know (tap any platter) metal rings and resonances on the whole are bad for reproduction on a deck. a metal is good at transferring vibration, but it needs to go somewhere that removes or reduces it. thats the point of a cld plinth. if it were me, my next move would be to cobble a rudimentary armboard out of whatever falls to hand that isnt ally. (anything at all!) hope that helps in any way

[pre65]

Philip the 1012 fits the body of the goldring if required would you be willing to lend it me as I think the 1012 has a different profile happy to pay postage both ways
Cheers
Colin

Hi Colin-it's in an SME headshell but I can take it off. I have the original box somewhere which should make it safe to post.

PM me your address and it will be sent off in a day or so when I can get to the nearest post office.

[Mike H]

Hi mike
Thanks ill check it out
But I got more protractors than I can shake an arm at

Think that's why I made my own versions, got too confusing otherwise

[Mike H]

sibilants as the vocals from the chap on the test record had some sibilants on it new sealed copy used twice by me on this turntable

Could be the sibilants are real!

[pre65]

Hi Phil I knew you had two pickering something or others. Pity it's two styli rather than two carts.

What's the XV15 like in terms of "roadholding"?

Steve

I put it onto the record and it plays moooosic !

I'm not into all this faffing about,take time to set it up reasonably well initially but that's it.