Dacs, kits or bought?

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Ant
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#1 Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Ant »

Any recommendations for a dac kit? Or a bought one which is going to better the beresford tc7510 I have?

Id prefer a kit tbh, i dont need USB, i just need one coax and one optical that I can switch between for the cd160 transport or the mac. I cant tell a difference between the mac and the cd160 if i play the cd or the cd rip in iTunes, so this to me kinda points the finger at the dac as the bit to change.

The digital side lags the analogue side by a laughable amount, hence starting to look at it
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#2 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by pre65 »

Maybe the next equipment comparison session in Huddersfield will be DACs ?
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#3 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Max N »

The AK4396 kits that some of us bought were a surprisingly good starting point, but they didn't have optical.
Ebay now has DACs using AK4490 ('premium' 'flagship') which do have optical in. I don't know if anyone has tried them?

Edit: I think Ray has had a play with the AK4490?
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Ray P
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#4 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Ray P »

Ant, I'm currently working on a Soekris R2R DAC project and I would suggest you add it to your shortlist. Here's the Soekris DIY module;

http://www.soekris.dk/dam1021.html

You might consider partnering it with one of these kits, which would give you a lot of input and output flexibility;

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s ... ntrol.html

The Soekris gets very positive reviews (including some from friends who's opinion I trust) and you have the option of experimenting with many different filters (the Soekris comes pre-loaded with four filters but there is a thriving filter concocting thread on DIY Audio).

For my project I'm using the OEM version of the Soekris, the DAM1121, (and the Audiozen SK Lite module) with a 6SN7 Aikido buffer on the ouput. I started a thread on my project in the Computer Audio subject and I'll soon be adding content once the parts I'm waiting for arrive. I have already assembled and tested the SK Lite kit so I'll have remote control of the Soekris in due course.

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#5 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Tony Moore »

Hi Ant,

I was going to suggest a ladder DAC and now I see Ray has provided links to a nice looking unit.

A long time ago, I built a Pedja Rogic TDA1541A DAC board and it has done me great service ever since. I don't use SP/Dif though, choosing to use I2S via a reclocker from Squeezebox Receiver. My output driver board is harvested from my old Hawk Audio DAC kit. (Sorry Hawk, the original DAC was good but I just preferred the sound of the 1541)

There is something magical and musical about multibit R2R DACs. Very reliant on component accuracy though.

I will be looking at that unit myself!
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#6 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Ant »

Ta for the suggestions guys, i'll have a look at those options
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Ray P
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#7 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Ray P »

Ant wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:56 pm ...i dont need USB, i just need one coax and one optical...
BTW Ant, to optimise any new DAC I suggest you really need to explore feeding your DAC with an I2S signal as it'll improve on coax/toslink. It might be possible to tap I2S from your CD player but personally I would suggest looking at a computer based system (such as an RPi) via USB or something like a LVDS I2S connection (or locate an RPi in the same box as the DAC - 'raw' I2S links need to be less than 10cms). As Tony has suggested, a reclocker is worthwhile too. On my Soekris project I'll be feeding I2S to the AC from one of these;

http://www.jlsounds.com/

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#8 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Neal »

That's what I use, RPI connected via I2S to a TDA1541A DAC. (old Arcam board taken from a CD player). Lots of s/w choices for the RPi, I use Max2play with squeezecentre running on a NAS.
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#9 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Ant »

I havent a clue what i2s is
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#10 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by jack »

Another vote for Raspberry Pi with a DAC hat and max2play - I use the IQaudIO Pi-DigiAMP+ or Pi-DAC+.

In the Pi-DAC+ they use the TI/Burr-Brown PCM5122 - 32bit @ 384kHz - see http://iqaudio.co.uk/audio/8-pi-dac-0712411999643.html - the Pi-DigiAMP+ includes a 35W/chan class D amp too and is based on the TAS5756m (no DAC as such as it's straight I2S in to the amp, then speaker out - maybe look at it as a "Power DAC" ).

Love it. But not a kit - it's PnP. And you've got to want to go the RPi route. Reasonably priced though and, IMHO, lovely sound - they're the ones I bought to Owston last year.

I2S (Inter-IC Sound) is the de facto standard for serial bus communications for digital audio - it keeps the clock & data separate so has lower jitter than systems that recover the clock from the data stream - should be no need to re-clock, though some people do.

I2S is uni-directional and is unrelated to I2C (Inter IC Communications) which is bi-directional and used by microprocessors to talk to digital peripherals like RTCs and EEPROMs.

Basically, for a microprocessor talking to a DAC, you want I2S - better than USB or I2C for audio.
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Ray P
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#11 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Ray P »

jack wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:20 am ...no need to reclock.
It depends on what you mean by "no need"; generally, providing you constrain the length of your I2S connections it will work but there are SQ improvements to be had with jitter reduction via something like the DIY fifo reclocking solutions that are available, pioneered by 'IanCanada' over on DIY Audio but now popping up all over the place including RPi solutions like the Kali

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital- ... -sbcs.html
jack wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:20 am Basically, for a microprocessor talking to a DAC, you want I2S - better than USB or I2C for audio.
You wouldn't consider I2C for transferring a digital audio data stream and it is irrelevant in this context.

USB is a little different - you wouldn't pass a USB signal to a DAC - in this context USB is the transport mechanism used to get the datastream to the microprocessor, which derives the I2S signals for transmission to the DAC so is, perhaps, conceptually closer to a network connection. That said, if you can use something like a RPi to derive the I2S without using USB it would seem to a step in a postive direction; I get amazingly good results with a Beaglebone Black which delivers I2S (and DSD) to a Buffalo IIIse DAC via an isolation/reclocking module.

You've also touched on another important aspect of a 'new DAC' decision, that of software. I think you should not consider a DAC as a discrete item but as one component in a digital music solution, that includes data tranport issues and the player software (and other factors like digital format, file hosting, etc).

I've been using HQPlayer for a year or two (while exploring DSD) but I'm returning to JPlay as I think it generally edges it over HQP for sound quality but is designed for USB, (hence the USB board in my current DAC project). JPlay will also be easier for my good lady to use as it can be controlled via DLNA/UPnP control apps like BubbleUPnP.

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#12 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by CN211276 »

pre65 wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:16 pm Maybe the next equipment comparison session in Huddersfield will be DACs ?
Good idea.
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#13 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by jack »

Ray P wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:45 am
jack wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:20 am ...no need to reclock.
It depends on what you mean by "no need"; generally, providing you constrain the length of your I2S connections it will work but there are SQ improvements to be had with jitter reduction via something like the DIY fifo reclocking solutions that are available, pioneered by 'IanCanada' over on DIY Audio but now popping up all over the place including RPi solutions like the Kali
Aha! Our edits crossed as I had just altered my text above to read "should be no need to re-clock, though some people do." :)
Kali only works with I2S slave devices, so won't work with the IQaudIO hats.
Also, with a Pi hat, the I2S connect length is a few mm only... I haven't tried reclocking, but I'd be surprised if it made a difference there as the length of the I2S link from the re-clocker to the DAC will be pretty much the same as if the reclocker wasn't there, i.e. RPi to DAC.
Ray P wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:45 am You've also touched on another important aspect of a 'new DAC' decision, that of software. I think you should not consider a DAC as a discrete item but as one component in a digital music solution, that includes data tranport issues and the player software (and other factors like digital format, file hosting, etc).
Agree entirely.
Ray P wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:45 am I've been using HQPlayer for a year or two (while exploring DSD) but I'm returning to JPlay as I think it generally edges it over HQP for sound quality but is designed for USB, (hence the USB board in my current DAC project). JPlay will also be easier for my good lady to use as it can be controlled via DLNA/UPnP control apps like BubbleUPnP.
Software is important and I haven't reviewed mine for over a year as I'm now in a different country.

Need to re-visit that.
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Ray P
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#14 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by Ray P »

jack wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:09 am Also, with a Pi hat, the I2S connect length is a few mm only... I haven't tried reclocking, but I'd be surprised if it made a difference there as the length of the I2S link from the re-clocker to the DAC will be pretty much the same as if the reclocker wasn't there, i.e. RPi to DAC.
I think you need to look at more than the length of the I2S tracks, for example, what the output from the microprocessor looks like jitter-wise. Using the Soekris DAC I'm working on as an example: the DIY version has I2S isolation/reclocking on its inputs, prior to the microprocessor but on the OEM version (that I'm using) the reclocking has been moved to after the microprocessor and it is reported to sound better - the rest of the DAC boards are essentially the same. I'm sure there will be some measurements on the thread but I don't have time to look for them now.

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#15 Re: Dacs, kits or bought?

Post by jack »

Ray P wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:22 amI think you need to look at more than the length of the I2S tracks, for example, what the output from the microprocessor looks like jitter-wise. Using the Soekris DAC I'm working on as an example: the DIY version has I2S isolation/reclocking on its inputs, prior to the microprocessor but on the OEM version (that I'm using) the reclocking has been moved to after the microprocessor and it is reported to sound better - the rest of the DAC boards are essentially the same. I'm sure there will be some measurements on the thread but I don't have time to look for them now.
All good points - I haven't looked at the jitter with a 'scope - the I2S from the Pi could well be jittery and therefore worthy of re-clocking...

I suppose it depends on how far you want to go - with the Pi-DigiAMP+, you're somewhat compromised on the AMP anyway, so it's a trade-off between convenience and whether or not re-clocking with make a difference in that case.

With a separate DAC like the Pi-DAC+ and a better quality final stage, re-clocking would certainly be worth investigating...
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