Steady on there Nick, this is a serious issue deserving consideration from our greatest minds. You can't get out of it that easily. Simply claiming that you need to spend more time designing some of the world's best hifi gear simply isn't good enough. You need to get your priorities sorted out, young man!
Or alternatively you could just ignore a bunch of old gits whinging about nothing....
A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
- shane
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#46 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
The world looks so different after learning science. For example, trees are made of air, primarily. When they are burned, they go back to air, and in their flaming heat is released the flaming heat of the Sun which was bound in to convert air into tree.
- andrew Ivimey
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#47 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
The Mostly Harmless Award for such mind-bogglingly primitive beings that they still think vinyl is a pretty neat idea...
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
#48 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
Vinyl? Stopping using shellac was the mistake.andrew Ivimey wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:38 am The Mostly Harmless Award for such mind-bogglingly primitive beings that they still think vinyl is a pretty neat idea...
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
- pre65
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#49 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
You stirred up the debate Nick.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
Edmund Burke
G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
#50 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
Sorry, in what world is that true, you said:
Is a "bake off" (horrible term) not a form of A-B testing ?
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
- pre65
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#51 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
Indeed, I made a remark (as above) and then you went on to question my reasons for said remark and it developed from there.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
Edmund Burke
G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
#52 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
I see, so that logic explains some things. So if I call someone a idiot, and they respond, its the fault of the person who responds, not mine. There is a consistency here I can see.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
- pre65
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#53 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
It's your forum Nick, so you must be right.
I've better things to do at the moment.
I've better things to do at the moment.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
Edmund Burke
G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
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#54 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
[youtube][/youtube]
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
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#55 Re: A perfect demonstration of why AB and ABX tests give false negatives
I think the problem we have with bake-offs, is the frame of reference.
Science tells us that in order for an experiment to be valid and for the results/outcomes to be worth the paper they are written on, there has to be a control against which everything else is judged, which is how it should be.
BUT... we have already seen from the robotic recording that we cannot trust our senses if the same piece of music is played again and again on different equipment. It all ends up sounding the same, not because it is all the same but because our brain makes everything the same.
Trust your ears cry the subjectivists - er..we can't.
Measurements are everything scream the objectivists - well yes and no. All depends on what you are measuring.
Trouble is if we like a particular presentation, we then (science says) have to explain our preference. If we suggest a set of things to listen for that explain our rationale behind our choice, then we influence what the others hear and they will hear them too, whether they like it or not. People are suggestible.
If we turn the bake-off process into a social gathering, we further complicate things. I have had people sidle up to me and completely ruin my enjoyment of someone's demo at Owston for example, by telling me me how crap something we are hearing sounds, when actually, to me it sounds pretty good. The doubt (intentional or not, it makes no difference) is then planted and I start to wonder.
I don't know of any solution to the bake-off conundrum except to listen to a variety of music, ie NOT playing the same music over and over. In fact playing a different track on each piece of gear, then running through with a different track again, so that no track is ever heard more than once. In this situation the mind has nothing to latch onto except the music itself and how it moves them or not as the case may be.
After all, this is art we are talking about. Science and engineering plays its part in the design and build but after that, it is the emotional connection that counts. The closer the sound of a piece of gear gets to hiding the mechanisms and actually putting the player(s) in the room with you, the better it is. There is no other criterion; how could there be? It cuts right to the chase.
Science tells us that in order for an experiment to be valid and for the results/outcomes to be worth the paper they are written on, there has to be a control against which everything else is judged, which is how it should be.
BUT... we have already seen from the robotic recording that we cannot trust our senses if the same piece of music is played again and again on different equipment. It all ends up sounding the same, not because it is all the same but because our brain makes everything the same.
Trust your ears cry the subjectivists - er..we can't.
Measurements are everything scream the objectivists - well yes and no. All depends on what you are measuring.
Trouble is if we like a particular presentation, we then (science says) have to explain our preference. If we suggest a set of things to listen for that explain our rationale behind our choice, then we influence what the others hear and they will hear them too, whether they like it or not. People are suggestible.
If we turn the bake-off process into a social gathering, we further complicate things. I have had people sidle up to me and completely ruin my enjoyment of someone's demo at Owston for example, by telling me me how crap something we are hearing sounds, when actually, to me it sounds pretty good. The doubt (intentional or not, it makes no difference) is then planted and I start to wonder.
I don't know of any solution to the bake-off conundrum except to listen to a variety of music, ie NOT playing the same music over and over. In fact playing a different track on each piece of gear, then running through with a different track again, so that no track is ever heard more than once. In this situation the mind has nothing to latch onto except the music itself and how it moves them or not as the case may be.
After all, this is art we are talking about. Science and engineering plays its part in the design and build but after that, it is the emotional connection that counts. The closer the sound of a piece of gear gets to hiding the mechanisms and actually putting the player(s) in the room with you, the better it is. There is no other criterion; how could there be? It cuts right to the chase.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.