Split discussion on subwoofers

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cressy
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#31 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by cressy »

I wonder how difficult Romy found it to get his system to integrate. Must have been head frying given the separate amps doing separate bandwiths to separate drivers
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#32 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by IslandPink »

Years of work and a gradual evolution. Most of the slopes are 1st-order ( electrical at least ) so there's a fair bit of overlap, which helps. Then there is the 'injection' channel which I think does something to fill in some gaps tonally or at least do something to aid cohesion in the midrange. Once you've got it to work for 2 or 3 channels it's not much more difficult to do it for 6 . Bear in mind if you put the filter slopes in the amp, you drive the speaker unit direct from each amp ; then things like Zobels ( to deal with eg. rising inductance of drivers in crossovers ) aren't required , so there are some simplifications.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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#33 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

So why can't multi channel music or cinema systems be capable of playing music in tune with acceptable levels of musical information for audiophiles (for want of a better word).
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Nick
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#34 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Nick »

I suspect they could be if:

1. You put enough effort into the speaker system

b. You put enough effort into the room interaction with the speakers

3. You had any multi channel sources that were worth listening to

4. You didnt get distracted by dummy head recordings and using headphones.

Some years ago I heard a professionally installed 7.2 way Genelec system that was the same kit as used in film sound mastering studios. It sounded crap playing music, but was great with depth charges and helicopters.
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#35 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Far too many variables, it is hard enough to get two channel right, look at how few even achieve that.
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Ray P
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#36 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Ray P »

Nick wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:04 pmBetween the two extremes...
Including the extremes IMO
Nick wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:04 pm...you have real world system that hopefully you pick to suit what you want.
And that is why, IMO, Dr Bunsen's dismissal of anything other than his way as being crap and bullshit is entirely spurious. There is no audio system, in my experience, that comes close to recreating a real live musical experience so we are stuck with having to make compromises and each of us will adopt our own set to try and have music in a domestic environment as we want to hear it based on our accrued beliefs and experiences. There is no absolute right or wrong way, just many ways, including subwoofers, complex multiways and the like - who are any of us to pass judgement on the choices other people make. Vive la difference!

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#37 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

And you are an expert on my designs - so how many have you heard.
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Ray P
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#38 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Ray P »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:37 pm And you are an expert on my designs - so how many have you heard.
But then you're not an expert on everyone else's designs are you.

But why should I need to be an expert on your designs to have an opinion about them; yes, I've actually heard some of your stuff and, sorry to say, there was no surprise because it didn't come close to a real live musical experience. My recollection of that day was that your stuff sounded pretty good but then we also listened to a couple of other pretty good systems too; there were differences in the presentation, but not chalk and cheese and different listeners preferred different systems with different music. So, IMO, my argument stands - there is no absolute right or wrong, just different compromises.

Oh, and IMO my current DIY system sounds better than all of those I heard that day but please don't consider me to be an unbiased witness.

Ray
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#39 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by IslandPink »

Ray P wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:58 pm There is no audio system, in my experience, that comes close to recreating a real live musical experience
Oh Ray - why so downbeat ?
Did we not get into this DIY game because we believe it WAS possible to get close to the live experience ? I certainly did, and still believe that .. and you with an OTL amp as well - do you not think that OTL played through a ribbon tweeter doesn't get really close to reproducing brass and bells in a lifelike way ?
What about some of the great setups we had at Eggborough and Owston with James's speakers or Paul's big DHT amps ? Those rare experiences can fuel you for years in DIY. What about the reports we get of the Vox Olympian by jaded old reviewers like Roy Gregory ?
Chris V ( who Paul and I know, Nick too, at least by correspondence ) visited Romy in Boston and said the system even 10 years ago sounded 'spectacular' - Chris is no mug - he knows reality when it hits.
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#40 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Ray P »

IslandPink wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:54 pmOh Ray - why so downbeat ?
Not downbeat Mark, just relating my experience - I really enjoy this hobby, frustrations and all. I go to a fair amount of live music and its true, there is something tangible about the listening experience that you don't get with a hifi at home. Don't get me wrong, there are times when I've thought 'they're in the room' but its not the same, though I keep trying with each new project. My recent experience with 'no-dac' DSD has given me a few more glimpses.

The other thing that I observe is almost the reverse. I know people who can listen to music on a mega-system or a cheap portable and derive equal pleasure from the music. They seem to listen to the musicians rather than the sound.

Ray
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#41 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

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shane wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:13 pm We know that it's possible to build a decent domestic loudspeaker with a good bass response because they exist, so I have two probably naive questions. To Chris, why build a subwoofer/satellite system when a single unit could be built instead? Is it just portability, or do you think it's an inherently better way of doing things? And toRichard, why isn't it possible to build a sub using the same principles as a single speaker? Why is the act of separating the bass section into a separate box always completely destructive?
Hi Shane,

Sorry I missed this.

Yep, portability is a part of it. The little Fostex speakers I have here are in a 2L box each, and manage to go low enough to hand over to a subwoofer that's located elsewhere. I could put the sub drivers in with the Fostex drivers, but each main speaker would then be around 40L each, which is a considerable increase in size.
Another factor is that the low-frequency source(s) will rarely sound best located with the main speakers, which ought to be optimised for stereo imaging.

Problem is, though, that "good bass response" means different things to different people. Some people find the 55Hz boom from most HTIB systems to be just fine, while others are happy with something that'll hit 40Hz solidly. All other things being equal, I like my bass to go as low as I can get it, so that when a piece of music has some bass that sweeps down, it just carries right on. The 2x12" sub I'm running at the moment measures flat to 15Hz, but could probably be persuaded to go lower since it's a sealed design. There are some people that would find my sub woefully inadequate, and would be looking to replace it with 4x 18"s as a minimum. Those guys tend to hang out on AVS Forum, and they come up with some interesting stuff. One guy can hit something like 120dB at 3Hz. He's also one of the few people that isn't looking to upgrade.

Chris
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Ali Tait
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#42 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Ali Tait »

That could probably be used as a weapon. :D
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#43 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Scottmoose »

Almost certainly. :twisted:

Can't say I feel the need myself, but to each their own.
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#44 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by pre65 »

Scottmoose wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:50 pm Almost certainly. :twisted:

Can't say I feel the need myself, but to each their own.
Indeed, but I'm still interested enough to read what others do.
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#45 Re: Split discussion on subwoofers

Post by Scottmoose »

Just so. Me, I like some of the massive (built in) horn designs, although I'll never be in a position to use them. :)
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