Something stirs in the Undergrowth
- IslandPink
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 10041
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 pm
- Location: Denbigh, N.Wales
#226 Edgar
Well, you know, your comments on Bruce's system from 2003 stayed with me. Also , every article or comment on forums that I've read from Bruce gives me confidence. He's a guy who understands both the theory and the practice of horn speaker systems . If you dig into the article I linked, and read about the crossover slopes - for instance ; he was building them first with 1st-order slopes because it was easy. Then someone helped him do 2nd or 3rd-order slopes and he tried some of those... but when he listened, and then played the speakers to the 'club' with the steeper crossovers, he didn't like the sound and other people didn't respond as positively . So, he went back to 1st-order slopes. Later, he understood from a theoretical point of view why it works better - but like a good scientist, he believed the evidence first, not the theory .
Hey, even Romy the Cat thinks Bruce is a good bloke - puts him in a club of two, along with Romy !
What you heard for the bass was probably one of his 'monolith' 40Hz horns . There's an article somewhere on those. It's a truncated exponential with one ( maybe two ) fold, I think, firing onto the floor to get the flor gain . Down at that freq, Tractrix isn't so important - there's all sorts of room-modes going on anyway .
The 'Tapped horns' are a new innovation that gives you a smaller package with most of the horn bass attributes - it was the crucial thing that made me realise a 4-way was possible in my room. With these, I can also go up to 130-150Hz , so that allows me to get a slightly better bass/mid horn starting at 110-120Hz instead of the 100Hz horns Bruce used, where he was using 12" or 15" guitar speakers ( EV15M ? ) to get a little lower .
Hey, even Romy the Cat thinks Bruce is a good bloke - puts him in a club of two, along with Romy !
What you heard for the bass was probably one of his 'monolith' 40Hz horns . There's an article somewhere on those. It's a truncated exponential with one ( maybe two ) fold, I think, firing onto the floor to get the flor gain . Down at that freq, Tractrix isn't so important - there's all sorts of room-modes going on anyway .
The 'Tapped horns' are a new innovation that gives you a smaller package with most of the horn bass attributes - it was the crucial thing that made me realise a 4-way was possible in my room. With these, I can also go up to 130-150Hz , so that allows me to get a slightly better bass/mid horn starting at 110-120Hz instead of the 100Hz horns Bruce used, where he was using 12" or 15" guitar speakers ( EV15M ? ) to get a little lower .
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
- Paul Barker
- Social Sevices have been notified
- Posts: 8879
- Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:42 pm
#227
I did read that article when it was published and read all Bruces stuff after vsac.
But to actually implement the concept is a big task, which you are obviously well on the way to achieving.
The only other system which held a cnadle to it was Josh's GM100's and that was probably down to his speakers also, he had welded some metal front firing horns which were similarly well integrated .
The sound of the GM100 was pretty well the same as the 212 But I suspect there was something very special about Josh's unusual looking speakers. They were all metal, and on the last day it was quite a job for them carrying them out.
they had to borrow power from the next room as the power from their room alone tripped the fuse at turn on. there was also a line behind which everyone had to stand if I remember rightly.
The Fostex implementations which were prevalent all sounded lifeless and rolled off at the top. Nowadays I see most people are using super tweeters.
I think life is the best word to describe Dr Edgar's stuff it breathed life. After hearing it's sparkle I may aswell have come home, nothing else to say.
The other thing going on was Alen wright was trying to claim he had invented something in a lecture and when he played the actual thing it didn't sound any different to any other reasonable quality push pull amp.
There was a prop forward wearing a frock with oversplashed makeup and dangly ear apparel whose 845 amp blew me away. I was the best sounding amp I heard. I can't remember who the company were but it was a two individual team. I hasten to add it wasn't Steve Bench but the amp was so good it may be they know each other.
But to actually implement the concept is a big task, which you are obviously well on the way to achieving.
The only other system which held a cnadle to it was Josh's GM100's and that was probably down to his speakers also, he had welded some metal front firing horns which were similarly well integrated .
The sound of the GM100 was pretty well the same as the 212 But I suspect there was something very special about Josh's unusual looking speakers. They were all metal, and on the last day it was quite a job for them carrying them out.
they had to borrow power from the next room as the power from their room alone tripped the fuse at turn on. there was also a line behind which everyone had to stand if I remember rightly.
The Fostex implementations which were prevalent all sounded lifeless and rolled off at the top. Nowadays I see most people are using super tweeters.
I think life is the best word to describe Dr Edgar's stuff it breathed life. After hearing it's sparkle I may aswell have come home, nothing else to say.
The other thing going on was Alen wright was trying to claim he had invented something in a lecture and when he played the actual thing it didn't sound any different to any other reasonable quality push pull amp.
There was a prop forward wearing a frock with oversplashed makeup and dangly ear apparel whose 845 amp blew me away. I was the best sounding amp I heard. I can't remember who the company were but it was a two individual team. I hasten to add it wasn't Steve Bench but the amp was so good it may be they know each other.
- pre65
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 21373
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.
#228
There's hope for DTB then.Paul Barker wrote:
There was a prop forward wearing a frock with oversplashed makeup and dangly ear apparel whose 845 amp blew me away. I was the best sounding amp I heard.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
Edmund Burke
G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
#229 Re: Edgar
Yes, the problem with tapped horns is the limited bandwidth - a rule of thumb is two octaves.IslandPink wrote:<snip>
The 'Tapped horns' are a new innovation that gives you a smaller package with most of the horn bass attributes - it was the crucial thing that made me realise a 4-way was possible in my room. With these, I can also go up to 130-150Hz , so that allows me to get a slightly better bass/mid horn starting at 110-120Hz instead of the 100Hz horns Bruce used, where he was using 12" or 15" guitar speakers ( EV15M ? ) to get a little lower .
It's all compromise, but they make ideal subwoofers for 80-20Hz.
Any more listening impressions of the TH you built?
- IslandPink
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 10041
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 pm
- Location: Denbigh, N.Wales
#230 Re: Edgar
Not really Chris .chris661 wrote:Any more listening impressions of the TH you built?
Been working away on the finish/cosmetics on the first one, in-between starting the bass/mid horns . Also, I need to try an amp with lower output impedance , as the 300B amp only has about 1.8R Zout, which alters the response of the tapped horn . Really I should get one of those T-amps , because I can use one for the TV ultimately. If I make an effort to finish the Passlabs F4, I still need to rig up a preamp to drive it. Too many jobs at the moment !
I also need to get some more 18mm MDF for the second unit .
I'll get there eventually, but my progress is never linear .
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
#231
Paul Barker wrote:I did read that article when it was published and read all Bruces stuff after vsac.
But to actually implement the concept is a big task, which you are obviously well on the way to achieving.
The only other system which held a cnadle to it was Josh's GM100's and that was probably down to his speakers also, he had welded some metal front firing horns which were similarly well integrated .
The sound of the GM100 was pretty well the same as the 212 But I suspect there was something very special about Josh's unusual looking speakers. They were all metal, and on the last day it was quite a job for them carrying them out.
indeed, they were fun fitting back into the U-Haul trailer along with the amps
as if the smell of ozone upon entering the room wasn't warning enough that "these aren't your grampa's SETs"
they had to borrow power from the next room as the power from their room alone tripped the fuse at turn on. there was also a line behind which everyone had to stand if I remember rightly.
funny, I had a different impression on hearing the amp driving Terry Cain's Abbys during a presentation in one of the boardrooms, with a Stellavox as source, IIRC - in other words it worked for meThe Fostex implementations which were prevalent all sounded lifeless and rolled off at the top. Nowadays I see most people are using super tweeters.
I think life is the best word to describe Dr Edgar's stuff it breathed life. After hearing it's sparkle I may aswell have come home, nothing else to say.
The other thing going on was Alen wright was trying to claim he had invented something in a lecture and when he played the actual thing it didn't sound any different to any other reasonable quality push pull amp.
DeHavilland, driving highly modified Lowther based Rethm2s?
There was a prop forward wearing a frock with oversplashed makeup and dangly ear apparel whose 845 amp blew me away. I was the best sounding amp I heard. I can't remember who the company were but it was a two individual team. I hasten to add it wasn't Steve Bench but the amp was so good it may be they know each other.
yes, that was a silly good combination
- Paul Barker
- Social Sevices have been notified
- Posts: 8879
- Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:42 pm
#232
Chrisby thanks for filling in the details. We must have passed by like ships in the night those three days.
Has there been anything like it since?
Has there been anything like it since?
#233
There was another VSAC in Vancouver WA in 2008, but while it was a nicer venue, and just as many good and crazy folks presenting and attending, somehow for me the magic was diminished.Paul Barker wrote:Chrisby thanks for filling in the details. We must have passed by like ships in the night those three days.
Has there been anything like it since?
The RMAF are a bit far for me to travel and from coverage I've seen trend more to the "carriage trade", and less to frugal / DIY plebes .
- IslandPink
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 10041
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 pm
- Location: Denbigh, N.Wales
#234 Update
Had a bit of a rubbish week , not much progress, but here's latest pic -
"White monolith with horn segments"
That's the first tapped horn almost finished ( just needs final fettling of surface and spray coats ) . Found a paint yesterday that's ideal to match the Azurahorns . It's a satin white radiator paint, in spray can . Sorted !
Note, the front edge of the base panel ( 25mm ply ) is not chequered - that's aliasing from the camera in low-res mode.
Behind you can see two side-pieces of the bass/mid horn .
Re. VSAC, found a great photo yesterday that features amps by Josh Stippich and some amazing horns by Steve Schell ( or at least his cogent drivers ) :
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/ ... ures/page6
"White monolith with horn segments"
That's the first tapped horn almost finished ( just needs final fettling of surface and spray coats ) . Found a paint yesterday that's ideal to match the Azurahorns . It's a satin white radiator paint, in spray can . Sorted !
Note, the front edge of the base panel ( 25mm ply ) is not chequered - that's aliasing from the camera in low-res mode.
Behind you can see two side-pieces of the bass/mid horn .
Re. VSAC, found a great photo yesterday that features amps by Josh Stippich and some amazing horns by Steve Schell ( or at least his cogent drivers ) :
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/ ... ures/page6
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
- andrew Ivimey
- Social Sevices have been notified
- Posts: 8307
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
- Location: Bedford
#235
ummmm ?
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
- andrew Ivimey
- Social Sevices have been notified
- Posts: 8307
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
- Location: Bedford
#236
this?!!! - should fit in!
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20157
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: The Fens
- Contact:
#237 Re: Update
Flippin' 'eck
I have lots of those ..IslandPink wrote:Had a bit of a rubbish week , not much progress
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
- Paul Barker
- Social Sevices have been notified
- Posts: 8879
- Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:42 pm
#238
Those metal horns Josh had at VSAC were great sounding also.
When you know a small amount of metal working knowledge you have to don your cap to the huge amount of skill knowledge and experience that is electron luv.
When you know a small amount of metal working knowledge you have to don your cap to the huge amount of skill knowledge and experience that is electron luv.