Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

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Shaman
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#1 Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Shaman »

Just wondered what opinions and experiences anyone has with vintage MM/MI cartridges.Only had experience with a Shure v15 iii and Decca Blue, Maroon and Gold. All of which I liked. Any thoughts ?
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#2 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Neal »

How much do you value your vinyl?
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#3 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Shaman »

Why do you ask that?
I'm a bit intrigued!
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#4 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by shane »

Not sure why they would threaten your vinyl. If nothing else, cartridges from that era tracked beautifully. I was never a great fan of the Shures although I must have sold hundreds. The M44s, 55s and 75s seem to be highly revered these days but were definitely thought of as being as mass market as a Ford Fiesta back then. Pioneer PL12D? Shove an M75ED on it...

I always liked the ADCs and Ortofons myself but it’s so long ago I couldn’t for the life of me tell you what they sounded like now.

Just seen a thread pop up on AoS. Someone’s looking for a new stylus for the Shure M55e he’s just got hold of for his Thorens TD150/SME3009. Back in the day an M55e would have been thought of as fit for at best a Garrard SP25. No one with an SME would be seen dead with anything less than a V15.
Last edited by shane on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#5 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Shaman »

Yes, I know what you mean about those Shure cartridges. I started off with a V15ii which was ok but the V15iii was a significant improvement. I didn't like the V15iv at all.
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#6 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by steve s »

I have a 301/ 3012 with a 55e on it...
It sounds pretty ok, I must have 30 or more older mm' s
Every once in a while I have a night trying them out, they can sound surprisingly ok
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#7 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Neal »

Well it depends I suppose on your idea of vintage...IE: as in wine or something that is very old. Vintage cartridges brought up images of 60+ year old cartridges that weigh a ton and track at half a ton with knackered styli, poor EOD and very questionable tracking capabilities...YMMV
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#8 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Shaman »

Neal wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:57 pm Well it depends I suppose on your idea of vintage...IE: as in wine or something that is very old. Vintage cartridges brought up images of 60+ year old cartridges that weigh a ton and track at half a ton with knackered styli, poor EOD and very questionable tracking capabilities...YMMV
Well, not quite that old. Probably late 60's and the 70's.
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#9 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by DSJR »

I can't help it but I have a stash of 70's mm types.

The V15 III could always sound a little hard-toned and the M95-ED was horrible *at the time,* but the HE stylus from the late 80's cured it and it became a rather excellent cartridge in my opinion. The slight 'dryness' of spatial perspectives is more 'correct' perhaps than the 'halo' which many MC pickups used to add, but I may be alone in this view. The V15 IV is an oddity and sounds 'small' on first acquaintance, but it grew on me although it's not the most 'demonstrative' of sounds. The V15 VMR is a potentially superb cartridge, but styli are fragile and I've no idea how the current Jico SAS replacement messes with the original design as conceived. Lower Shures are nails basically, although the 75-ED ain't bad, but not as good as it's parent the V15T2. The M55E has vague bass and to me really shows it's fifty plus years of age, but that's me. M3-D is funky fun but tracks recent hot pressings with strong sibilance very badly - I'd use it only for singles and if you really want a strong sound and 4g tracking, get a later OM Pro! The SC35C is a dullard up top but has good strong bass grooves - I'm talking the original version and my loan sample came from the BBC stockroom in the mid 80's and went straight back after I should add - the BBC had misgivings about its tracking I was told and replaced them with OM Pro's.

ADC's? Love 'em all. favourites are the ZLM, VLM and XLM III and Phase IV. The original XLM and 25/26/10E-IV models need a negative-mass tonearm ;) and track sibilance not well in modern arms and with much wobble if you're unfortunate. Used to be really good in Fluid Arm I remember. I also like the Sonus Blue which is spiritually descended from these, but there's a massive 28k peak and this can upset phono stages. The ADC's sound musical, slightly 'creamy/organic' and maybe not as 'defined' as a modern cartridge from Ortofon or AT...

B&O SP12 - really good but half-inch cartridges are rare and can be microphonic in handling. The later MMC20-EN is nice in a warm environment and the 20-CL was a 'classical music' fan's delight.

Audio Technica? They range from bloody marvellous to absolutely terrible. Too many for me to remember but the AT20SLa was a goodie although probably outclassed today by the 440ML and 540 I suspect and for less money new than used 20SLa's go for. Current metal bodied version is the 150 and 750 I believe. the 110E was liked and this is now realised in the 120E-II and 520 models. AT95E has been going forever and I think current ones have slightly better styli and possibly gold pins on the back (I think).

Ortofons? M20E Super is a dream, M20FL Super is beefy and pretty good too. M15 and VMS 20/30 models are thick toned and not good communicators to me and way outclassed by the OM20/30, 500 range and 2M models. The VMS10E II is better than the more recent VMS5E II and not as 'scratchy' as I remember the OM10 being.

Stanton 681EEE. Tracks well at 1.2g, more stable than early high compliance ADC's and when I started in 1973 it was preferred to the V15 III. The 881S another goodie but few and far between. Slightly 'vague' sounding perhaps compared to new models.

Old Goldrings G800 and 820 - Oh do leave off. Nails, all of them. The G800 with a good later stylus is passable and huge fun in a solid arm, the early ones had ghastly 'needles' fitted. I have good 800E and 820E samples and both have missing high frequencies, rather like the far-eastern sourced? Elan and Eroikas which I think have thankfully gone now in favour of the AT based E series.

Empire - there's Empires and there's Empires. Not all styli are very well polished and my 2000E-IV is as rough as a badger's backside under the microscope as are cheaper Shure 'Nails' up to the 'ED' models. The top ones could be sublime in a suitable arm and the 'Doc' has a lovely (1000?) GT model which is seriously good sounding even today.

Grado's - The cheapest old ones are lovely I remember and I have a rather nice F1+ doing good things in a Garrard Lab 80mk2 here, tracking at 1.5g and with moderate bias correction (panned in a HiFi Choice but it wasn't used properly I remember). I have a feeling the early ones were better than current Prestige models and some of the Reference range (which changed monthly) were really seriously good.

Any help to you?
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#10 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by shane »

Nagaoka? They were around in the late 70s but I’ve never heard one.
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#11 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Shaman »

DSJR wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:08 pm I can't help it but I have a stash of 70's mm types.

The V15 III could always sound a little hard-toned and the M95-ED was horrible *at the time,* but the HE stylus from the late 80's cured it and it became a rather excellent cartridge in my opinion. The slight 'dryness' of spatial perspectives is more 'correct' perhaps than the 'halo' which many MC pickups used to add, but I may be alone in this view. The V15 IV is an oddity and sounds 'small' on first acquaintance, but it grew on me although it's not the most 'demonstrative' of sounds. The V15 VMR is a potentially superb cartridge, but styli are fragile and I've no idea how the current Jico SAS replacement messes with the original design as conceived. Lower Shures are nails basically, although the 75-ED ain't bad, but not as good as it's parent the V15T2. The M55E has vague bass and to me really shows it's fifty plus years of age, but that's me. M3-D is funky fun but tracks recent hot pressings with strong sibilance very badly - I'd use it only for singles and if you really want a strong sound and 4g tracking, get a later OM Pro! The SC35C is a dullard up top but has good strong bass grooves - I'm talking the original version and my loan sample came from the BBC stockroom in the mid 80's and went straight back after I should add - the BBC had misgivings about its tracking I was told and replaced them with OM Pro's.

ADC's? Love 'em all. favourites are the ZLM, VLM and XLM III and Phase IV. The original XLM and 25/26/10E-IV models need a negative-mass tonearm ;) and track sibilance not well in modern arms and with much wobble if you're unfortunate. Used to be really good in Fluid Arm I remember. I also like the Sonus Blue which is spiritually descended from these, but there's a massive 28k peak and this can upset phono stages. The ADC's sound musical, slightly 'creamy/organic' and maybe not as 'defined' as a modern cartridge from Ortofon or AT...

B&O SP12 - really good but half-inch cartridges are rare and can be microphonic in handling. The later MMC20-EN is nice in a warm environment and the 20-CL was a 'classical music' fan's delight.

Audio Technica? They range from bloody marvellous to absolutely terrible. Too many for me to remember but the AT20SLa was a goodie although probably outclassed today by the 440ML and 540 I suspect and for less money new than used 20SLa's go for. Current metal bodied version is the 150 and 750 I believe. the 110E was liked and this is now realised in the 120E-II and 520 models. AT95E has been going forever and I think current ones have slightly better styli and possibly gold pins on the back (I think).

Ortofons? M20E Super is a dream, M20FL Super is beefy and pretty good too. M15 and VMS 20/30 models are thick toned and not good communicators to me and way outclassed by the OM20/30, 500 range and 2M models. The VMS10E II is better than the more recent VMS5E II and not as 'scratchy' as I remember the OM10 being.

Stanton 681EEE. Tracks well at 1.2g, more stable than early high compliance ADC's and when I started in 1973 it was preferred to the V15 III. The 881S another goodie but few and far between. Slightly 'vague' sounding perhaps compared to new models.

Old Goldrings G800 and 820 - Oh do leave off. Nails, all of them. The G800 with a good later stylus is passable and huge fun in a solid arm, the early ones had ghastly 'needles' fitted. I have good 800E and 820E samples and both have missing high frequencies, rather like the far-eastern sourced? Elan and Eroikas which I think have thankfully gone now in favour of the AT based E series.

Empire - there's Empires and there's Empires. Not all styli are very well polished and my 2000E-IV is as rough as a badger's backside under the microscope as are cheaper Shure 'Nails' up to the 'ED' models. The top ones could be sublime in a suitable arm and the 'Doc' has a lovely (1000?) GT model which is seriously good sounding even today.

Grado's - The cheapest old ones are lovely I remember and I have a rather nice F1+ doing good things in a Garrard Lab 80mk2 here, tracking at 1.5g and with moderate bias correction (panned in a HiFi Choice but it wasn't used properly I remember). I have a feeling the early ones were better than current Prestige models and some of the Reference range (which changed monthly) were really seriously good.

Any help to you?
That's all very interesting and has given me plenty to think about.
I would be using an Audiomods arm or Origin Live Silver.
Thanks for the comprehensive answer....much appreciated.
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#12 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by DSJR »

I'm biased against OL arms as they seem to take a good basic design and add extra resonances to make the sound more 'exciting.' My recommendation for a Rega bodge model would be a Technoarm, which is well finished and engineered and then back to be assembled by Rega, who have all the custom tools and experience to set the bearings properly.

I've just seen this one - http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/rega-rb808-3

I'm supposed to be brainwashed in favour of Rega but haven't sold the stuff since 2004. These new arms have different (better for third party use?) fixing arrangements to the original RB models, the pipe has had much work done inside (it was always an interesting casting) and unlike the brass loc-tited RB250 based models, the bearings here are very finely hand-toleranced and carefully set in manufacture and this model claims better wiring too, so less bodging around later on! Because these arms don't 'zing' like the alternatives do (the Pro-ject models are bad as well if HFW are anything to go by), they will show up a bland or dull old cartridge such as we used to sell in the mid 80's (A&R E or P77, Rega R100 and RB100 and Goldring alternatives). they do however, like lively ones like the Linn K9, AT's and the Goldring 10** models.

Just my experiences. Others may well have different views. I'm a Decca fan as a good one sounds so close to master recordings in my experience, and this obviously influences my vibes against a syrupy sounding vinyl playback system. I dislike Rega MM cartridges, even the Exact 2, yet their MC models are opposite and rather interesting to me for example...
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#13 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Ant »

If you want to upgrade the rega arm, get an audiomods arm.
They are shit hot. They might be based on a rega but they arent anything like a rega. I fitted one to a g99 for a customer and spent some time with it, if i were in the market that is what I would buy.
Or just get a cart that matches your current rega and buy a large stack of lps with the money it woupd cost to get another arm
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#14 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by AlasdairB »

Over the years I went through Goldring G820E, Shure M75B/EJ/ED, Goldring G900E/SE, Rega RB100 and Mayware MC7VIII before settling on a Denon DL103. this was then upgraded with a metal body and an Expert Stylus sapphire cantilever and Paratrace stylus and gave excellent sound with my Mayware MkV arm set to maximum effective mass. However when the Denon's most recent stylus wore out, before sending it off for another retip I decided to would try out the Rega and Goldring again, as my system has moved on since the days when I used them previously.
The RB100 is an intriguing design (fixed stylus MM) with excellent tracking and extraordinary stereo separation but very droopy treble. With a preamp modification to lift the treble (thanks to the ever-helpful Graham Slee) the stereo resolution beat the DL103 (no slouch in this area) and it was very good on classical but ultimately I couldn't get the treble balance 'just right'.
I then tried the G900SE, retipped by ESCo many years ago with a 0.5 naked conical stylus as an experiment. It still sounded very good, so I splashed out £93 on a new hyperelliptical Tonar stylus from Mantra Audio. This brought home why the G900IGC was so highly thought of in its day. It tracks everything at 1.2g and the sound is splendid, with open peak-free treble, firm bass and spacious stable stereo. To my surprise it beats the (excellent) Denon all round, which has now been consigned to the 'spares box'. If you can find an old G900 and have a suitable arm, it is capable of very fine results.
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#15 Re: Vintage MM/MI cartridge recommendations

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

If you want the vintage character there is nothing better than a Shure M3D. Early Tamla Motown / Everley Bros / Buddy Holly etc on a M3D is magic.

For under the radar quality then the better Empire, ignore the cheap as they made loads of cheap crap for themselves and others, but their good ones are really good, track down to feather light in a suitable arm.
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