Thorens TD150 and the Road to Vinyl Bliss

Love it or hate it, it just won't stop
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Mike H
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#151

Post by Mike H »

I am totally flumoxed.




My flum has never been so oxed...



.
 
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colin.hepburn
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#152

Post by colin.hepburn »

Mike H wrote:I am totally flumoxed.




My flum has never been so oxed...



.
Your totally flummoxed mike I haven't a clue now except to say Steve the shadow maybe right about bad recordings or wear on the records but not everything I have got cant be plus CD as well that's why I tried nicks samples that turns out to be the worst so far i am now playing vinyl on the old AR 101 right now sounds great until a word with the letter S in it SShhhhh or is that sssshittt sibilance hash
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al newall
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#153

Post by al newall »

I think you have an enhanced sensitivity to sssshittt type sounds.
It will be great day when we sort this one out! :)
Much to learn there is.
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#154

Post by colin.hepburn »

al newall wrote:I think you have an enhanced sensitivity to sssshittt type sounds.
It will be great day when we sort this one out! :)
Hi al newall
Yep have been messing with my old AR EB 101 This time with the VTA and VTF still can't get ride :shock: I am getting close to the edge now man in white coat come soon I think :(
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Mike H
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#155

Post by Mike H »

OK but if you're hearing it from CD's as well and also if not using the main amp and speakers at all but from headphones straight off the CD player and you can still hear it, messing about with the TT isn't going to alter things much? Overall?

Appendix ~ presumably the CD o/p on its own has enough grunt to drive headphones properly, or has it got a headphones socket?

True, recordings can be diverse, and vynil grooves can be worn, messing up the treble etc. Even so...

Could you perchance record some samples as mp3 or something? Then we could all have a listen!


.
 
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#156

Post by Cressy Snr »

Mike H wrote:Woah hold on, you mean you've now tried two completely different TT's and two completely different carts and it's the same? Image
I know this quote is from a while back in the thread but it is indeed surprisingly easy to get this phenomenon. As I said at the beginning of this unfortunate thread, I went for years with the same problems so that I eventually abandoned vinyl altogether. Those who say they never had this problem or have not had it for years are IME a very fortunate few. Vinyl replay takes a lot of getting right. Get it wrong and it sucks...period. I don't give a monkey's about the "analogue" sound. If midband tracking distortion is present then I don't want to know. However get vinyl right and it beats your average CD player into the ground.

IMHO Colin, what you need to do, at the risk of repeating myself is to get a cart with superb midband tracking of at least 80um if not 90. If it won't pass that test then you are simply going to get the "ssszzzt"t problem whenever a loud vocal track happens. You have played with changing the counterweight on the Rega arm and yes there have been improvements to bass and treble definition, yet you still have the vocal distortion on sibilants. It's the cartridge mistracking I'm afraid.

IME the only cartridges that exhibit fantastic tracking in the midband are either big-ass professional DJ cartridges of the Stanton 890 or 680 series variety, or expensive moving coils with advanced stylus profiles. As far as I know there is only one cartridge that breaks this trend...the Denon DL103 and its derivatives, but the Denon is the exception and is not really suitable for the Rega arm without a great deal of messing with added headshell mass.

It is also evident that the emphasis of sibilants occurs with CD. OK this is a classic symptom of a system optimised for vinyl "excitement" at the expense of neutrality viz-a-viz a peak in the presence region. Amps don't tend to exhibit this problem as they are mostly engineered to have a flat response across the audible range, with low distortion. The NAD is no exception and if anything should be sounding a bit on the warm side of neutral.

The real culprits in this little lot are speakers, or for that matter headphones, designed by the marketing department to be impressive in the dem room. It is only when you get them home that the faults start to manifest themselves; then of course, it is too late to do anything about it.

Colin Topps and myself had an interesting conversation about this at Eggborough. This conversation was particularly pertinent with my own speakers, with which I have had a real adventure tying to get neutral. That Andrew and Steve Shiels referred to them as having an "understated" quality was, for me a confirmation that I had voiced them about right.

So... having a cartridge that tracks properly, mounted in a good arm on a good turntable, going through neutral speakers means that I can listen to my CD player, Squeezebox or turntable and derive equal enjoyment from all three sources. It was interesting that at Eggborough, Will asked me if he could play the Nils Lofgren track I had used for my demo through his speakers, and asked me to fetch the record over. He was most surprised when I told him it was actually a digital file on my computer he had been listening to and not vinyl. " well it sounded like vinyl" was his reply. :D

So where does that leave you?
My advice would be to forget about looking at the amplifier as a culprit for the problems you're having and see to both ends of the chain.

It is obvious that no amount of fiddling with the TT setup is going to work, so change the cart to a 680 series Stanton. The tracking distortion will then stop, but you will still be left I think with an emphasis to sibilants except that this time they won't be distorted, just too loud. In other words your vinyl will sound better than your CD player but will exhibit the forward, hard quality of CD in an inappropriate setting.

Then turn your attention to the speaker crossover to pull down the presence region. Read up on Peter's articles in HFW. They are an excellent place to start. Scott might be able to help in that area too

Get that sorted and Bob's your uncle!
Believe me when I say it will work. It worked for me after years of frustration with vinyl; it'll work for you too.

Steve
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#157

Post by colin.hepburn »

Hi Mike/Steve
Yep but I am assuming right or wrong the Cd's is just bad Mic technique or studio Mixing
Yes the CD player will Drive Headphones Direct from line out got a 2 Volt out into 300 ohms ample
Yep I can do some samples got a gadget to do that strait from the CD or the phono to USB not sure how to upload the files to here thou :shock:

Steve
Thanks for your write up again on this and I hear what you're saying Steve, Problem is I am stuck with this setup for the moment due to well cash flow I'm afraid but my long term plans to complete the system is to next build a version of ether your Rocky or a LW as I have most of the part for the rocky best go with that I think speakers planed are the planet 10s fostex 126 frugal Horns
Ps
just playing a live blues CD i made up some time ago now on the valve headphone amp and Guess what no sibilance funny how most of my live Cd's seem fine :D and the shop pre recorded stuff sucks :shock:
Last edited by colin.hepburn on Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#158

Post by Cressy Snr »

Well there's one thing you could do in the meantime that I have only just thought of.

Turn down the treble on the NAD amp. It might just take the edge off things for the time being. :)

Steve
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#159

Post by colin.hepburn »

SteveTheShadow wrote:Well there's one thing you could do in the meantime that I have only just thought of.

Turn down the treble on the NAD amp. It might just take the edge off things for the time being. :)

Steve
I never use the EQ its switched out of circuit tone defeat button on all the time just don't like tone controls can try it thou but I think it would bug me knowing theirs a filter switched in allthe time
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#160

Post by Mike H »

Here's a Stanton 680:

http://www.thedjshop.co.uk/cartridges-a ... 680v3.html

Don't cost an arm and a leg either!

colin.hepburn wrote:Hi Mike/Steve
funny how most of my live Cd's seem fine :D and the shop pre recorded stuff sucks :shock:
How about that :D
Yep but I am assuming right or wrong the Cd's is just bad Mic technique or studio Mixing
Quite possible given the number of processes, anything can happen

Interesting that Steve about how things are falsely made to "sound more interesting"
 
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#161

Post by Mike H »

colin.hepburn wrote: I never use the EQ its switched out of circuit tone defeat button on all the time just don't like tone controls can try it thou but I think it would bug me knowing theirs a filter switched in allthe time
Yes I'm of the same opinion TBH ~ how about a simple little RC roll-off network that you can make?


Or, tantalum resistors I've discovered can be quite "mellow", could use small values in series, or for a lesser effect a larger value in parallel to the signal path.
 
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#162

Post by colin.hepburn »

Mike H wrote:
colin.hepburn wrote: I never use the EQ its switched out of circuit tone defeat button on all the time just don't like tone controls can try it thou but I think it would bug me knowing theirs a filter switched in allthe time
Yes I'm of the same opinion TBH ~ how about a simple little RC roll-off network that you can make?


Or, tantalum resistors I've discovered can be quite "mellow", could use small values in series, or for a lesser effect a larger value in parallel to the signal path.
Tantalum resistors got a couple of the audionote ones in the headphone amp thinking about a pair for the input resistors of the phono cant you do quick sketch of this simple little RC roll-off network
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#163

Post by Mike H »

Believe it or not that's complicated!

Get back to you on that...

NB I once tried series 1k tantalums on the output's of me phono pre, then almost promptly took 'em off again cos they knocked out most of the treble! Tho but there was also 500k tants in parallel as well (ties the o/p sides of the caps to 0V). Since replaced with 330k carbons. (I think 330k or something like).
 
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#164

Post by Mike H »

How about this:

R1 = 10k, C = 3300pF, R2 = 22k.

As a rough guestimate it rolls off the treble from 5 kHz to about -3dB, and then R2 makes it flatten out at about that level. Or just slightly under.
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#165

Post by colin.hepburn »

Mike H wrote:How about this:

R1 = 10k, C = 3300pF, R2 = 22k.

As a rough guestimate it rolls off the treble from 5 kHz to about -3dB, and then R2 makes it flatten out at about that level. Or just slightly under.
Cheers mike
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