EL84, Balanced Input, Push-Pull Amplifier

What people are working on at the moment
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Cressy Snr
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#31

Post by Cressy Snr »

Here's the latest upgrade.

Image

The 500V coupling caps at the top of the pic were replaced with the tropical fish caps below, courtesy of our DTB.

Don't laugh, they're lovely! Beautiful tone, smooth top end.
They used to be used as tone caps in electric guitar control panels
and stomp boxes.

They'll do very nicely until I can afford some TAD vintage paper in oils.
I've become quite partial to using guitar amp caps in hi-fi amps.
They're cheaper than audiophool caps and they sound better to me.

The gorgeous 6B4G monoblocks that created a bit of a stir a couple of Owstons ago were full of guitar amp bits.
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Paul Barker
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#32

Post by Paul Barker »

Mullard Mustard caps give lovely tone. If I ever build an amp that needs coupling caps I would use those they are very cheap compared to audiofool caps. I assume these things Dave has found are the up to date version of similar sound.

Although in guitar amps smaller values are used,

100nf is available right now!
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Cressy Snr
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#33

Post by Cressy Snr »

Thanks for the link Paul.

I'm slowly but surely learning about the things that really matter with valve amps; tone being an important one of them,
kick-arse power supplies another.

It's taken me damn near eight years to get it but better late than never :)
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Greg
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#34

Post by Greg »

Those mustard caps Paul linked to are advertised as new although to me, the lead outs look suspiciously short for a new or even a NOS product.
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pre65
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#35

Post by pre65 »

Greg wrote:Those mustard caps Paul linked to are advertised as new although to me, the lead outs look suspiciously short for a new or even a NOS product.
Were you wearing your glasses Greg ? :wink:

I read it as below in the advert text.

"THIS SALE IS FOR 1 PEICE OF, RE-CLAIMED / USED, MULLARD MUSTARD CAPACITOR."

:lol:
Last edited by pre65 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cressy Snr
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#36

Post by Cressy Snr »

Greg wrote:Those mustard caps Paul linked to are advertised as new although to me, the lead outs look suspiciously short for a new or even a NOS product.
I noticed that too Greg but he has some NOS. These are double the price however. OTOH even at £7.50, they still cost less than most audiophile stuff.

Re the originals in Paul's post, he does describe them as reclaimed, used further down the page.
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#37

Post by Greg »

OK, I acknowledge I didn't read the full advert but the very first line says they are new!

Then goes on to say.....


Item specifics
Condition:
New: A brand-new, unused, unopened and undamaged item in original retail packaging (where packaging is ... Read more

Please can I be excused for not wearing my glasses :wink:
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#38

Post by pre65 »

Greg wrote:
Please can I be excused for not wearing my glasses :wink:
Just this once. :)
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#39

Post by Neal »

I still like the orange drop polyester film caps for tone, WAD used to ship them with all their kits at one point...
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#40

Post by Greg »

Neal wrote:I still like the orange drop polyester film caps for tone, WAD used to ship them with all their kits at one point...
Yes, interesting you've said that. Richard Maile from the WAD/WD forum went all round the houses with coupling caps and in the end settled back with the original orange drops as his preferred choice. Certainly, he has a very good ear.
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#41

Post by Mike H »

SteveTheShadow wrote:The 500V coupling caps at the top of the pic were replaced with the tropical fish caps below, courtesy of our DTB.
Just FYI, I think the tropical fish pattern stopped being available in the 1980's, so those to me look like > 20 years ago NOS.

All newer ones I got since were orange or blue. And I don't think the newer orange ones (polyester) are anything like the old 'orange drops' either as far as audio quality goes. Just IMO
 
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#42

Post by Cressy Snr »

Here we have the finalized design for the balanced PP amp:

Image
Current values have been added.
Component values in blue signify changes from the previous schematic.

The treble performance of the amp was still bothering me. Although the highs were all there,
they seemed a bit down in level, compared to the rest of the music spectrum.
To cut a long story short, it was Morgan Jones, "Valve Amplifiers" (4th ed) that once again came up with the answer.
Because this is a balanced shunt pot volume control, effectively centre tapped to a virtual earth,
the series resistors actually needed to be half the value you would normally fit to a 100K pot.

A carefully matched pair of 91K, 1% metal films were parallelled up to the existing 91Ks and we now had the correct upper frequency response.

I didn't stop there. A bit more reading of Lynn Olson's Amity write-up and a pair of 30uF PIO 450V motor-run caps were shoehorned into the chassis
and connected up WE style to the HT where it fed the centre taps of the OPTs.

Now with Ultralinear, with FB operation, the ultrapath caps suggested by Mark had not been a success, but with feedback-less
triode-strapped operation of the output stage, the difference was shocking; night and day better in favour of the WE connection.
HF transparency was very good, soundstaging and bass performance were quite a way ahead of the simple un-bypassed cathode resistor I had been using up to then.

Interesting.
Wonder why the WE connection was so awful with Ultralinear and plate-to-grid feedback, but is so obviously good with triode operation, sans feedback.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#43

Post by Paul Barker »

Interestingly the output stage circuit values are near enough the same for my 6v6 amp.

So we may have a chance to hear an interesting comparrison. Except I am IT phase splitting just before the output stage.

For another occasion I have some 10KCT : 10K Gardners, which I could turn round and build a fully balanced amp.

But talk is cheap, I haven't even built anything so far this time round.

I elected for a different value balancing pot on the PP cathodes of only 25 ohm and a 300ohm adjustable cathode resistor (AOT) so the Western Electric harmosizer can be tuned in (connected to the wiper). W.E. use a raio of about 10:1. I read somewhere that you can tune in the best devision. What I don't yet know is whether a 25ohm pot allows sufficient capability to balance the output valves. If there is a side requiring even more than all of 25 ohm I could boost it with a fixed resistor.

The cheap output transformers I have were not wound on a split bobbin so the dc resistances are considerably different. Pretty amateur mistake. But they are cheap. It probably won't be the main limitation to the sound.


It is more of a deliberately cheap easy throw together than a best I can do type of project.
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#44

Post by Cressy Snr »

Yes, should be interesting comparing the two amps.
All this harmonic equaliser stuff is fascinating. Wish I could understand the theory behind it.
I wouldn't mind having a go at a 6V6 amp at some point down the line.
I have four Mazda 6P25 I could build with too.

The EL84 is getting very close to being a keeper, like the AC/P1 SE amp.
I need to get our Ant to make a box.
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#45

Post by Cressy Snr »

SteveTheShadow wrote:Yes, should be interesting comparing the two amps.
All this harmonic equaliser stuff is fascinating. Wish I could understand the theory behind it.
Having read a bt more of MJ (4th ed) it seems I have a HE circuit formed by half the 100R output stage balance pot...or maybe its the 270R resistor.
I'm still having trouble seeing which way round it is, because of the ultrapath cap. :)
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